McIVORS - big mess now !

vickory · Post by **vickory** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:58 am

Hi Everyone,
Well I have a big mess now it seems & just when I thought I was doing well.

To go backwards from what I know to be correct from the Oz end, well from certificates I have.
Elizabeth FERN died 17 Aug 1919 Sydney NSW AUS age 74, widow.
Place of Birth Edinburgh Scotland
Parents father, Patrick McIVOR, boot merchant, & mother,Elizabeth STEWART
40 years in NSW
Husband James FERN,gardener, place of marriage Edinburgh age at marriage 18.

James & Elizabeth FERN arrived QLD AUS 1862, children born QLD then NSW.

James FERANS/FERANCE, gardener/journeyman address Chance Lot Farm Edinburgh married Elizabeth McIVOR 15 Apr 1861 Edinburgh, her age 18, occupation General Broker's daughter, father Patrick McIVOR, General Broker, mother Margaret McIVOR us STEWART (dec'd). Witness Mary McIVOR
Address given as St Mary's Wynd.

So I went looking for her parents, I hadn't found her on the census of 1861 at that time.

I found a Patrick McIVOR, pawnbroker, in Cupar with wife Mary Jean ALEXANDER & thought that he had remarried... Mary was witness name so ok, found him in census there & parochial directory as a broker. married 1856 Cupar as widower.

Now I finally find Elizabeth on 1861 Census (with some help from TS), which I have uploaded to the gallery because as usual I can't decipher all the words,
The family are at 38 St Mary Wynd... so surely this is the correct lot even though the surname is spelt McIVER rather than McIVOR.
There is
Patrick MCIVER, head, mar, age 62, broker, where born ? Ireland
Sarah McIVER, wife,mar, age 44, where born ? Ireland
Mary McIVER, dau, un, age 24, Shoe shop keeper, where born Edinburgh
Elisa McIVER, dau, un, age 18, domestic servant, where born Edinburgh
Ro??? McIVER, dau, un, age 9, scholar, where born Edinburgh

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1460

I wonder if the youngest child is the daughter of the 1st wife or the 2nd wife... unless the wife was sarah all along & not Elizabeth or Margaret???

I can't find a birth for any of the girls using the first initial* & Mc*v*r, father pat*
I haven't found them in the census of 1851 or 1871 using Pat* Mc*v*r

I found this marriage...
1 1858 MCIVER PATRICK MCKIE SARAH ST GILES EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/04 0073

This death...
1 1874 MCIVER PATRICK M 76 CANONGATE EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/03 0942

I haven't looked at the images yet...
Can someone tell me what info might be on the death record please?

I'm not sure of the best way to progress & would like to try to avoid any more mistakes

Any suggestions much appreciated
Regards, Vicki

Gallery URL added - AndrewP

Post by **Anne H** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:44 am

Hi Vicki,

Take a look here for the information you might expect to find on a death certificate (providing the informant knew the details)
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/conte ... 628#Deaths
There is also an example of a death certificate.

Regards,
Anne H

Post by **AndrewP** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:15 am

Hi Vicki,

Your uploaded 1861 census page can be seen at:

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1460

Patrick MCIVER, head, mar, age 62, broker, born Co. Derry Ireland
Sarah McIVER, wife,mar, age 44, where born Armagh Ireland
Mary McIVER, dau, un, age 24, Shoe shop keeper, where born Edinburgh
Elisa McIVER, dau, un, age 18, domestic servant, where born Edinburgh
Rosoin McIVER, dau, un, age 9, scholar, where born Edinburgh

I suspect Rosoin probably should have been Roisin (pronounced Ro-sheen). Therre is a good chance that the girls born in Edinburgh were baptized in the Roman Catholic church and were never recorded in the OPRs which were kept by the Established Church of Scotland.

Also...
1861 - from transcription on Ancestry
Chance Lot on Farm, Edinburgh (St Cuthberts)
James Ferans 45
Eliza Daughtery Ferans 44
James Ferans 23
Anne Ferans 20
(all born Ireland)

I reckon Patrick's mariage to the mother of the girls should be in the mid-1830s, and possibly in Ireland, so unlikely (although not impossible) to be the 1858 one you found on ScotlandsPeople. However, if Sarah was a second wife, that one is possible.

All the best,

AndrewP

vickory · Post by **vickory** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:15 am

Hello Anne,

Thank you for the info link, very interesting so I now have the images... & so does the gallery

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1461

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1462

Regards, Vicki

Gallery URLs added - AndrewP

vickory · Post by **vickory** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:29 am

Hello Andrew,

Thank you for linking the census image & deciphering it too.
I've uploaded the death cert for Patrick & the 1858 marriage to Sarah McKie as well... perhaps you would do the honours again if you don't mind.

I would never have worked out Rosoin/Roisin let alone the pronunciation!

I have had the 1861 for FERANS for awhile but haven't found anything else on them as yet, but I'm getting at little better at finding things so there is still hope.
Right now I had better keep concentrating on the McIVORs while I'm on a roll, 1851 Census & 1871 & the other 2 girls marriages & their mother & step mother's deaths... I'll stop now before I scare myself off.

If the girls births are not in the OPR's is there any other way to find them through Catholic Church records?

I'm a bit sad... the % of my Scottish heritage seems to be diminishing whilst I'm gaining some Irish I didn't know I had

Regards, Vicki

Post by **AndrewP** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:36 am

Hi Vicki,

Here are my decipherings for your lates two certificates.

Patrick McIvor, Shoe Manufacturer
Married to Sarah McHugh
Widower of Roisin Stewart

Died: 1874 October Thirty First 6pm
63 St Mary Street Edinburgh
M, 76 years

Father: Patrick McIvor, farmer, deceased
Mother: Rose Anne McIvor, M.S. McDermott (deceased)

Apoplexy, 3 days
As Cert. by ______ Mathew(?), Physician

Informed by: John Doherty, son-in-law
66 St Mary Street
Registered 1874 November 3rd at Edinburgh
A.W.Balfour, Registrar

=======================

On the Ninth day of August 1858, at St Patrick's Cowgate.
Marriage (after Banns) was solemnized between us
according to the forms of the Catholic Church.

(signed) Patrick McIvor, 50, 40 St Mary Wynd, Broker, Widower
(signed) Sarah McKie, 43, 31 St Mary Wynd, Broker, Widow

Parents:
Patrick McIvor and Rosanne McIvor or McDermott
Francis McKie, farmer and Catherine McKie or Mallin(?)

(signed) Alexander O'Donnell, Catholic Clergyman
(signed) Jane(?) McIvor
(signed) Cecelia Kerr(?) or McIvor

The above Marriage was Registered by me at Edinburgh,
on the 12th day of August, 1858
Dav. Beatson, Registrar

There are some Catholic Church records available, either through the church, the diocese, or the National Archives of Scotland. Hopefully someone who has sought Catholic Church records may be able to advise you better on this point.

All the best,

AndrewP

vickory · Post by **vickory** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:54 am

Hi Andrew,

Thank you so much, well I have some extra hunting to do now, maybe more sisters & their husbands... but that's good.

The names are fitting too as James & Elizabeth FERANS had daughters named Mary,Rose Anne, Elizabeth Sarah, Annie Catherine & Christiana...

Surely I have it right this time!
Regards, Vicki