Muir family Shettleston/Coatbridge/Old Monkland

[simbasgang]

Hi again,
I've hit another brick wall with my gt.grandmother and her family.
She was born Mary Muir about 1826. On the censuses she gives Shettleston as the place or Old Monkland. She was married in Old Monkland 23 April 1848 to William Scott Bruce.

On the OPR I received from SP, it gives him as being from Springburn, and Mary of The Comet Inn, Coatbridge.

So far I have been unable to find this Inn in the Historical Directories or on any old maps. I have trawled through all the censuses of 1841 and 1851 for the area and still found nothing---a mammoth task without knowing the Innkeeper's name

William is found in 1841 in Dalton-le-dale on a ship "Anatolia" as apprentice, although he was born in Baldernock 2 June 1823. I cannot find anything out about this ship either.I presume he was lured to the area by the promise of work, although after marrying Mary he is found with her in Dundyvan in 1851 as a grocer.

Mary's Death Cert. gives her parents as David Muir and Janet Scott but I cannot find her birth any where. However one of my cousins has a marriage cert. for a Walter Muir and Jean Hamilton and seems to think that they could have been Mary's parents. I have searched SP and the LDS site and found nothing about Mary anywhere.

There are problems later on with the family too, but more of that another time maybe. I would be grateful if anyone can help with all of this---a long shot I know.. But thanks anyway.

Best wishes Sheilah

[AndrewP]

Hi Sheilah,

The 1841 census, according to Ancestry's transcription has the following group in the Comet Inn, Coatbridge.

John Watson 40 Innkeeper
Agnes Watson 35
James Watson 13
John Watson 11
Agnes Watson 9
Jane Watson 6
Margaret Watson 5
Bethea Watson 3
Janet Watson 2
Elizabeth Weir 15
Jane Russell 15
Marien Russell 15

There were also three households at Comet Inn Building (none were Muirs).

I didn't find Comet Inn in the 1851 census on Ancestry. John Watson was a baker at another Coatbridge address in 1851.

All the best,

AndrewP

[Jack]

Hi Sheilah,
To add to Andrew's findings.
Can't help any on names, but this may be where The Comet Inn was?
If you go to this National Library of Scotland page.

http://www.nls.uk/maps/townplans/townplans.html

Select Coatbridge [1858]
Click on VII.12.14
Comet on Bank St. (but doesn't say Inn)
It's at the left hand side of the map (just south of the canal)
Just click on the area to zoom in.
--
And on this Rootsweb page, in Enumeration District 12 is Bank St, Comet Inn.

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/LA ... 0932179796
--
Jack

[simbasgang]

Hi Andrew and Jack,
Please accept my thanks for the information. I have been all round Coatbridge this morning!!!! I found the Comet Inn and Dundyvan Main street where William Bruce (my g,g,grandpa) and Mary lived after their marriage. He was a grocer and their first son had been born by 1851.

I really enjoyed those websites you gave me-thank you.

However the mystery deepens! I tried to trace Mary's birth and parents the long way round viz: On the 1881 census she has a Robert B Muir living with her in St James Rd. I presumed this to be a nephew and traced his parents. His father John Muir, I assumed could be Mary's brother. Going further back, John's parents turn out to be none other than Walter muir and Jean Hamilton! .But tracing this family in 1841, I find that Mary is only 8. SP nor the LDS site have any records of her or John.

The only Mary that is about the right age was born to Henry Muir and Mary Ann McLure from Ireland.

Going off the Scottish naming patterns, we have 'Walters' through the following generations but no 'Henrys'.
The other thing that turned up from the Comet Inn were the Watson family---my father was Andrew Watson Bruce!! The rest of his siblings all had a surname as their middle name which can be traced to recent ancestors. One of his sisters was Jean Hamilton Bruce. His eldest brother was Walter Muir Bruce. So we have both 'Walter' and 'Hamilton'
and 'Watson' in the family names

The mystery is ongoing as we have found out that Granpa could have been illigitimate, being born to Mary in 1863 after William died...........but then we found out that William had signed his own fathers death certificate in 1861-----12 months after he himself had supposedly died

You see what a big mess I am finding with my family! It only adds to the interest though and I am more than a little intrigued and determined to get to the bottom of it all.............................

I really appreciate all your help guys and any more input would be fantastic.

Thank you so much and my fondest regards to you Sheilah x

[Jack]

Hi Sheilah,
There's this short Poor Relief application for Mary MUIR - married surname as BRUSE.
Usefully it now confirms who Mary's parents are - Walter MUIR & Jane HAMILTON.
Looks very like the informant got it wrong on her DC - alas a not uncommon occurrence.
You can't check your own DC....
--
Barony Poor Relief Application. D-HEW. 14/11. Page 10034.
13 March 1861.
William Bruse; Wid. Mary Muir.
Condition - Widow, 33 yrs.
Address - 23 Ronald St.
Born Shettleston. Husband Baldernock.
Cause of Application - Has 4 small children.
William, 11, born Coatbridge.
Jane, 7, born Saint James Rd.
Walter, 5, born Present house.
David, 9 mos, born Present house.
Parents - Walter Muir & Jane Hamilton.
14 March 1861 - 2½ pm. ...[this is when the Inspector visited & took more details]
In Present Land - 23 Ronald St. Barony. 5yrs 9 mos 2 wks.
Prior Land - 101 St. James Rd. Barony. 2 yrs.
Prior Land - Parliamentary Rd. Barony. 3 mos.
Prior Coatbridge from marriage in April 1848.
Rent - £9.19/-
Has one lodger at 5/6 week & expects to get another in the bedroom at 2/- week.
I saw rent receipts for residence in Present House.
15 March - Roll 3/- week.
18? June - Grant Shoes, Stockings, Palliesat & Shawl.
----end
Jack

[simbasgang]

Hi Jack, That's absolutely brilliant!!!!! I can't thank you enough!!

It's definitely her---everything else is spot on!!! Her husband William Scott Bruce died November 1860--I have his DC. Her son James was my granpa. She had a James born in 1858 which we always thought as Granpa but since found out that he died in 1859. Another son was born in August 1863, registered as James Muir,illigitimate, mother Mary Bruce---he is apparently my Granpa!!! He was born at Ronald Street.
So , who is the father????? I don't know if there are any records where there is a chance of finding out??? We're still wondering why she called him 'Muir' when all his life he was 'Bruce', and on his DC his father is down as William !!!!!
Just wondering which of the lodgers is responsible!!!! She also had another daughter in 1867 and called her Mary Lyon Bruce!!---Lyon was William's mother' MS.
Oh the mysteries of our families

Can i ask you where to find the poor law, please? Never know when it might come in useful again!

Once again, many many thanks


Sheilah x

[Jack]

Hi Sheilah,
I've my doubts that the father of your GF James MUIR (b.1863) will ever be known.
Occasionally a Poor Relief application might say, but there were no later ones for his mother Mary.
And i can't see any for James born about 1863, Glasgow.

It was probably just more convenient for Mary to use the BRUCE surname for all in the family.
And perhaps James never saw his BC, and as his older siblings' father was William,
he'd have no reason to think that his wasn't the same.
With his MC with father as William, he went through life thinking it was,
and his children wouldn't have had any reason to query it.

Mary's Poor Law record was from The Mitchell Library, Glasgow.
They have name indexes in the Archives Dept.
Nothing online though; perhaps this will happen eventually (but not in the near future).
--
This page gives some details of Scottish Poor Houses.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html ... land.shtml

And The Mitchell Library Family History Dept.
http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Residents/ ... lyHistory/
--
Jack
ps, something doesn't seem right; a "dead" man going about signing DCs...
Perhaps it's a different BRUCE family that has a William as the informant on his father's 1861 DC?
Do the details on William Scott BRUCE's 1860 DC match up with the 1861 DC of his "father's"?
i.e. exactly the same parents' names and the same occupation for his father?
--

[simbasgang]

Hi Jack,
I couldn't find some of the certificates either,-tried SP and the IGI to no avail, and then my cousin who lives in Glasgow found some BCs and DCs--i don't know where he found them, and as he's a very busy man and away on business a lot, I don't like to keep bothering him! He is not into the FH asmuch as me!!!

As I don't have the certs on the PC at the moment and this one is not attached to a scanner, here are some details:
JAMES:

James Bruce b.March 3rd 1858, 23 Ronald St..F. William Bruce, carter.
M. Mary Bruce MS Muir. signed William Bruce father

James Bruce, Died April 4th 1859, 23 Ronald St.. F. William Bruce, carter.
M. Mary Bruce MS Muir. Cause: bronchitis. Buried Sighthill Cemetery, Glasgow. signed Elizabeth Goold aunt
Birth also on IGI Batch C116441

James Muir (Illigitimate) b August 27th 1863, 23 Ronald St.. M. Mary Bruce MS Muir, housekeeper. signed Mary Bruce mother

WILLIAM: Mary Muir's husband.

DC William Scott Bruce carter and contractor, November 11th 1860, 23, Ronald St. Glasgow. married (Mary not named)
Father: William Scott Bruce, wright (dec)
Mother: Mary Bruce MS Lyon

Cause: doubtful 7 days. Buried Sighthill Cemetery, Glasgow signed James Bruce brother

WILLIAM (Senior) Father of Mary's William

DC William Bruce millwright, December 13th 1861, Royal Infirmary Glasgow. Of Wallace Ct., Maitland St. Married to Catherine Crossan.
Father: William Bruce engine keeper (dec)
Mother Lillias Bruce MS Scott

Cause:Pneumonia 3 weeks signed William Bruce son


I have the Marriage cert for his marriage to Catherine Crossan . He must have been divorced from Mary Lyon but can't find anything. It is Definitely the right guy as his parents William and Lillias are correct.

The signatures could be the same but I'm no handwriting expert!!
Will get the certs scanned tomorrow.

It is a mystifying family but very interesting!!

Thanks for looking!

Sheilah

[Jack]

Hi Sheilah,
I've been tracing William Scott BRUCE & Mary LYON through the years.
Mainly Mary though; seems she was a widow by 1851?
I've not seen the original census pages to check; details below are from Ancestry...
Her ages throughout are a wee bit inconsistent - but near enough.
The 1861 census has Mary as a "House Carpenter's Widow",
so it would appear that late hubby worked with wood, and not metal (eg a millwright)

MARY LYON - Birth: 25 FEB 1798, Baldernock, Stirling

WILLIAM SCOTT BRUCE & MARY LYON
Marriage: 16 JUL 1825, Gorbals, Lanark
Marriage: 23 JUL 1825, Baldernock, Stirling
====
1841 622 Ed 63 p 14 (Blythswood)
Renfrew St.
William BRUCE, 38, Wright, J/man, b LKS ...... [Ancestry has BROWN... ]
Mary BRUCE, 38, -------------------b LKS
William BRUCE, 18, Grocers Shop, b LKS..... [who married Mary MUIR]
Agnes BRUCE, 15, ----------------b LKS
Elizabeth BRUCE, 13, ------------b LKS
Mary BRUCE, 11, ----------------b LKS
James BRUCE, 9, ---------------b LKS
Janet BRUCE, 6, ----------------b LKS
Margaret BRUCE, 1, -----------b LKS
Robert NAISMITH, 19, Clerk, b LKS
James NAISMITH, 14, Clerk, b LKS

1851 622 (587) Ed 39 p 14 (Blythswood)
35 Renfrew St.
Mary BRUCE, head, 46, House Holder, b Baldernock, STI
Agnes BRUCE, daur, 22, Warehouse worker, b Glasgow, LKS
James BRUCE, son, 18, Newspaper clerk, b Glasgow, LKS
John S. DUNCAN, lodger, 32, Tinsmith & Gasfitter, b Rothesay, BUT
Janet BRUCE, daur, 16, Saleswoman of ?, b Glasgow, LKS
Margaret BRUCE, daur, 10, Scholar, b Glasgow, LKS
William LYON, nephew, 15, Message boy, b Baldernock, STI
William GORDON, lodger, 18, Shopman Stationer, b Brechin.

1861 cens 644-6 Ed 64 p 8 (Blythswood)
35 Renfrew St.
Mary BRUCE, head, 65, House Carpenters widow, b Baldernock, STI
Elizabeth GOOLD, daur, 33, Sewer of white seams, b Gorbals, Glasgow, LKS
Janet BRUCE, daur, 25, Small Ware Saleswoman, b Gorbals, Glasgow, LKS
Margaret BRUCE, daur, 20, Dressmaker, b Gorbals, Glasgow, LKS
William KENNEDY, boarder, 23, Book keeper & Cashier, b Kenmore, PER
James CAMERON, boarder, 24, Cabinetmaker j/m, b Aberfeldy, PER

1871 cens 646-3 Ed 19 p 29 (Govan - Partick)
2 Otago St.
Janet SKIMMING, head, 36, Smallware? Merchant, b Glasgow, LKS
Mary SKIMMING, daur, 5, --------------------------b Glasgow, LKS
Wilhelmina SKIMMING, daur, 3, ------------------b Glasgow, LKS
Janet SKIMMING, daur, 2, ----------------------b Hillhead, LKS
Mary BRUCE, mother, 73, --------------------b Baldernock, STI
Margaret BRUCE, sister, 30, Saleswoman, b Glasgow, LKS
Janet LYON, visitor, 75, -------------------b Baldernock, STI

1881 cens 646-2 Ed 29 p 2 (Govan - Partick)
1 Wilson St.
Janet SKIMMING, head, widow, 45, Drapers shop, b Glasgow, LKS
Mary SKIMMING, daur, 14, Scholar, b Glasgow, LKS
Wilhelmina SKIMMING, daur, 13, Scholar, b Glasgow, LKS
Janet SKIMMING, daur, 11, Scholar, b Hillhead, LKS
Mary BRUCE, mother, widow, 83, -----b Baldernock, STI
Margaret BRUCE, sister, u/m 38, Drapers saleswoman, b Glasgow, LKS
Jane COATS, servant, 17, Dom Servt, b Glasgow, LKS
--
1883 - Mary LYON / BRUCE aged 85 yrs dies in Partick. (from a "free" search on SP)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel the William BRUCE born 1806 isn't the William who married Mary LYON.
Very possible your William Scott BRUCE's birth was never recorded.
And is just a coincidence on the names.

WILLIAM BRUCE - Birth: 04 OCT 1806; Chr: 18 OCT 1806, Barony, Lanark
Parents: WILLIAM BRUCE & LILLIAS SCOTT

This "might" be the above William in these 3 censuses below?
Certainly in the 1861 anyway,
and he does have a son William who could've signed his 1861 DC...

1841 cens 644-1 Ed 11 pp 1-2 (Glasgow - St George in the Fields)
Garscube Rd.
John MARTIN, 55, Smith, b SCT
Elisabeth MARTIN, 55, ---b SCT
William MARTIN, 30, -----b SCT
Marion MARTIN, 25, ------b LKS
Margaret MARTIN, 25, ---b LKS
Thomas SYDSERFF, 11, b LKS
William BRUCE, 25, Millwright J. b LKS
William BRUCE, 11, -------------b LKS
John BRUCE, 6, -----------------b LKS
-
1851 cens 644-1 (536) Ed 22 p 20 (Glasgow - St George)
281 Garscube Rd.
William BRUCE, head, 45, Millwright, b Parkhead, LKS
Marrian BRUCE, wife, 40, --------------b Glasgow, LKS..... [Marion MARTIN from 1841?]
William BRUCE, son, 20, App Iron turner, b Glasgow, LKS
John BRUCE, son, 18, App Iron turner, b Glasgow, LKS
Marrian BRUCE, daur, 4, ---------------b Glasgow, LKS

1861 cens 644-7 Ed 22 p 1 (Milton)
117 Maitland St.
William BRUCE, head, 49, Engineer, b Glasgow, LKS
Catherine BRUCE, wife, 44, -------------b Ireland
James McAULAY, lodger, 21, Pottery porter, b Glasgow, LKS
John McAULAY, lodger, 16, Pottery porter, b Glasgow, LKS
====
Perhaps this is the informant son William who signed the 1861 DC?
And also the younger son John?

1861 cens 644-7 Ed 53 p 3 (Glasgow - St. George)
43 Garscube Rd.
William BRUCE, head, 30, Engine smith & Iron turner, b Glasgow, LKS
Mary BRUCE, wife, 27, ---------------------b Strathbungo, RFW

1861 cens 644-7 Ed 73 p 8 (Glasgow - St George)
North Woodside Rd.
John BRUCE, head, 28, Iron turner, b Glasgow.
Janet BRUCE, wife, 23, -------------b Glasgow.
Helen P. BRUCE, daur, 2, -----------b Glasgow.
====
I'll leave it all with you to see what you think!
Jack

[simbasgang]

Hi Jack,

I really appreciate the help you are giving me. I have tried to scan some documents tonight but SP is playing up and giving me error messages and our scanner refuses to work(printers working tho!!) So I'm getting a wee bit crabbit!!

I'm so glad you found the 1841 census--I've looked for it for 2 years I tried every form of Bruce/Brice/Brace etc etc. On one census I found them as Bence!!! You've definitely found the right ones!!

I really thought I had them all sussed out and now you've thrown a spanner in the works and they may not be who we thought they were after all

Re William Lyon/Catherine:
IGI Batch M119754 William Bruce married Catherine Bruce Glasgow 8th December 1841

DC for Catherine Bruce: Died September 29th 1886 19 Macadams Lane, Glasgow.
Widow of first: James McAulay Harbour Porter
Second : William Bruce Engine Fitter

Father:?????Crossan Freestone Quarryman
Mother:Catherine Crossan MS unknown
Cause: Senile debility 2 yrs
Signed: James McAulay son

(This certificate is on my PC as a tif image--readable but don't know about exporting it.)

The family on the 1861 census are obviously this William and Catherine + the 2 sons she had to her first husband James McAulay.

On this William's DC,(died 13th December 1861) he was the son of William Bruce and Lillias Scott and was born, as you say, in October 1806.

On the DC of the other William, (d. 11th November 1860) he was the son of William Scott Bruce-wright, and Mary Lyon.
On the censuses, Mary Lyon gives 'widow' and we thought it was because maybe she didn't want everyone to know that her husband had left her for another woman!!! Saving face, so to speak!!
The only discrepancy there is that she gives him as a joiner............?? I understand what you mean about the millwright thing............so which William is which Are they one and the same and Mary told lies??Or are they 2 different people??
Who is the William who signed the DC as 'son' to WB in 1861??
Where do Lillias Scott and William Bruce born in 1777 fit in??
Who really is James dad (b 1863 or????)

My cousin, Liz, has become interested and remembers stories that her Mum (my dad's sister) used to tell about Grandma Mary. She was very prim and proper--(but had children out of wedlock)!! And there was a big mystery over William,s death(in 1860)--some tales went round that she'd poisoned him and others that he wasn't dead It was a taboo subject to talk of him in their house while the children were growing up!

Intriguing or what???

It appears that the only definite thing now is that my dad was born the next youngest in a family of 10 to James Bruce and Annie Hedderwick Robertson 4thApril 1905.

Think I'd better start again................!!!!!!!

Just kidding! The Robertsons have been slightly easier---but still found skeletons!!!
Is this why we do it? Just for the fun of it???

I expect you'll have a headache when you've read all this!! I know I've got one now!

Thanks a million Take care, Sheilah xx