John Innes & Jane Grant.. William Mcrae & Elizabeth

[JamesS]

Hello All

I am hoping that someone out there may be able to help me with the following......... I descend the following couple Alexander Innes born 1840 and Ann McRae born 1840........ who are one set of my 2 x Great Grandparents........

Their marriage certificate reads as follows:

On the 12th September 1863

After Banns according to the forms of the Free Church

Alexander Innes
House Carpenter (Bachelor)
23 years (Born 1840)
Usual Residence: Macduff
Father: John Innes... Pensioner (deceased)
Mother: Jane Innes... M.S. Grant

married......

Ann McRae
Domestic Servant (Spinster)
23 years (Born 1840)
Usual Residence: Elgin
Father: William McRae... Labourer
Mother: Elizabeth White (deceased)

Other Details on the marriage certificate are:

(signed) Wm Leslie... Minister of Free Church of Macduff

(Signed) William Alexander... Witness
(Signed) George Smith... Witness


1) What I would like to ask is... Does anyone else on this site descend the
same couple and if so PLEASE get in touch!

2) Can anyone tell me anything about "Free Church Macduff" around the
time of their marriage?

3) I am for whatever reason assuming that this church no longer
exists........ however, does anyone know if there are records saved and
recorded anywhere from before this couples marriage? Also can anyone
tell me anything about the "Free Church of Macduf"???

4) With regard to the parents of Alexander Innes born 1840....... I did
find the marriage on the 25th July 1820 of a John Innes and a
"Jean" Grant....(mine is Jane Grant.....is Jane and Jean the same?)
The record for this couple showed the following:

John Innes in Shenval of Tom Breakchy and Jean Grant, parish of
Abernethy married.

I thought that this couple could be the parents of Alexander so I looked
for children and I found that they had 10 of them between 1820 and
1841..... 9 were born in Inveravon and the and the other was born in
Aberlour...each child was baptised within a few days of their birth....

However, I did not find on the LDS website a birth for a Alexander Innes
in 1840.... so may I ask if anyone thinks that I have the wrong
couple???..... They did have a son named Alexander born 1820....
I also know that sometimes a child dies and parents sometimes give
another child the same name..... I know this couple named 2 daughters
Margaret......

Is it probable that I have the wrong couple???... or is it possible that
there is a missing record... on the LDS site of my Alexander 1840 and I
have the right couple??????

I would appreciate all thoughts on this?????

The other thing is that Alexander Innes and Ann McRae had 9 children
and 6 of these children were given the same names that John Innes
and Jean Grant gave to 6 of there 10 children... is just a coincidence?...
I know that children are often named after other family members....
This is why I think I may have the right couple....

I have to admit that I am finding it very hard to know which Alexander
Innes on the 1861 Scotland census is mine as there are so many
Alexander Innes's...... plus his marriage cert only states that his
"Usual Residence is Macduff"...... I do not know whether he was born
there or somewhere else!!!


5) Please!.... Does anyone else out there Descend John Innes and Jane
Grant?.... bearing in mind their son Alexander Innes was born in 1840!.

I am guessing that if Alexander was married at the age of 23 and if he
was born to older parents... then his parents may have even married
c1800 and in turn they may have been born c1780..... yet if he was the
child of young(er) parents then they could have been born c1800 and
married c1818.

6) Now to Alexander's wife Ann McRae born 1840 of Elgin........
Please!... Does anyone out there Descend William McRae and Elizabeth
White?...

Yet again I can only have the same thoughts about them and their
marriage... if Ann was married at the age of 23 and if she was born to
older parents... then her parents may have even married
c1800 and in turn they may have been born c1780..... yet if she was the
child of young(er) parents then they could have been born c1800 and
married c1818.

Now to another matter..... Alexander Innes and Ann McRae named their 3rd child..... Jemima Innes born 22 Dec 1866 in Old Machar, Aberdeen, Scotland....

This name Jemima..... does it have an alternative??????.... e.g often people given the birth name John sometime get called Jack....


I would REALLY APPRECIATE hearing anyones thoughts on what I have written....... and also especially if anyone else descends what are two more sets of my 3 times Great Grandparents.......

John Innes & Jane Grant.....and....... William McRae & Elizabeth White.

I will leave this for now......

Many thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this even if you are unable to help!

Cheers James

[nelmit]

Hello and welcome to Talking Scot James.

Here are John and Jean (and yes Jean and Jane are interchangable along with Janet or Jessie) in 1841.
If this is your family then it looks like Alexander was born after 1841.

Piece: SCT1841/157 Place: Inveravon -Banffshire Enumeration District: 6
Civil Parish: Inveravon Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 6 Page: 2
Address: Shenval

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
INNES John M 55 Farmer Banffshire
INNES Jean F 43 Banffshire
INNES Margaret F 18 Banffshire
INNES Robert M 10 Banffshire
INNES Donald M 7 Banffshire
INNES Catherine F 5 Banffshire
INNES Jean F 3 Banffshire
INNES Hellen F 4m Banffshire

Kind regards,
Annette

[Archiver]

The records of Macduff free church from 1843-1981 are held at the National Archives of Scotland (www.nas.gov.uk) under reference CH3/1416. It is also known as the Gardner United Free and is now a Church of Scotland church. There is quite a bit of information about the building itself available if you do a google search on it.

[nelmit]

Here is that family again in 1851 courtesy of FREECEN- still no Alexander.

Piece: SCT1851/157 Place: Inveravon Auchbreck -Banffshire Enumeration District: 7
Civil Parish: Inveravon Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 129 Page: 5 Schedule: 18
Address: Shenval


Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
INNES John Head M M 63 Crofter Banffshire - Inveravon
INNES Jean Wife M F 53 Wife Inverness-shire - Abernethy(Originally: Inverness-shire - Aberneathy)
INNES John Son U M 24 Son Ag Lab Banffshire - Inveravon
INNES Catherine Dau U F 14 Daur At Home Banffshire - Inveravon
INNES Hellen Dau U F 10 Scholar At Home Banffshire - Inveravon
INNES Elisabath Grnchd - F 5 Scholar Banffshire - Inveravon

[JamesS]

The records of Macduff free church from 1843-1981 are held at the National Archives of Scotland (www.nas.gov.uk) under reference CH3/1416. It is also known as the Gardner United Free and is now a Church of Scotland church. There is quite a bit of information about the building itself available if you do a google search on it.

Hello

I would simply like to say thank you for the information that you provided and I will google the info that you gave.

Thanks! James

[SarahND]

Hi James,
You're absolutely right that something is strange here These people are either hiding, or some of the names are off. Could you tell us a bit more about Alex and Ann & family? For instance, the IGI has these four children to that couple:

Jane Ann Innes
Birth 28 Feb 1864 Rayne, Aberdeen

Barbara Innes
Birth 31 Jul 1865 Newhills, Aberdeen

Jemima Innes
Birth 22 Dec 1866 Old Machar, Aberdeen

Alexander Innes
Birth: 12 Aug 1868 Old Machar, Aberdeen

What were the names and birth places of the other 5? Did they stay in Scotland or go elsewhere? Do you have Alexander's death certificate? Are the same parents' names given? When did Ann die?

I like the following birth, because it is in the right place, the right time, right father's name... and he named his second daughter Barbara!

Alexander Innes
Birth: 12 Aug 1841 Gamrie Banff
Father: John Innes
Mother: Barbara Leggat

Gamrie is the Parish for Macduff. On Scotland's People there is a birth for Alex* Innes in Macduff on 12 Aug 1841, Father John, Mother Barbara

Any other little tidbits of information you may have would perhaps make the search easier.

All the best,
Sarah

P.S. Oh, now I see... THEY WENT TO ENGLAND There is the family, as clear as day. And I suppose he died in England and therefore you don't have his mother's name on the certificate? Hmmmm. Oh, and why is his wife called Mary? Was she Mary Ann?

[JamesS]

Here is that family again in 1851 courtesy of FREECEN- still no Alexander.

Piece: SCT1851/157 Place: Inveravon Auchbreck -Banffshire Enumeration District: 7
Civil Parish: Inveravon Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 129 Page: 5 Schedule: 18
Address: Shenval


Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
INNES John Head M M 63 Crofter Banffshire - Inveravon
INNES Jean Wife M F 53 Wife Inverness-shire - Abernethy(Originally: Inverness-shire - Aberneathy)
INNES John Son U M 24 Son Ag Lab Banffshire - Inveravon
INNES Catherine Dau U F 14 Daur At Home Banffshire - Inveravon
INNES Hellen Dau U F 10 Scholar At Home Banffshire - Inveravon
INNES Elisabath Grnchd - F 5 Scholar Banffshire - Inveravon

Hello Annette

Thank you for welcome.... thank you for taking the time to read my message and taking the time to send the info that you kindly attached.

I also now find myself needing to say sorry......Sorry!...... I should have said in my message that I had found John, Jean and their family in the 1841-1861 Scotland census returns on the ancersty.com website......

I forgot to say this in my message probably because I was unable to sleep and sent the message about 4-4.30am.....

Like yourself I was unable to find a son Alexander born 1840 in any of the census returns for this particular John and Jean......

Do you think that this couple are not the parents of my Alexander Innes?

Even though 6 of Alexander and Ann's children had the same names of 6 of the 10 children that this particular John and Jean had......

I guess maybe I 'm trying to convince myself that these are the parents of my Alexander when the are probably not!!!!

The problem is that on Alexander and Ann marriage certificate his father John Innes is listed as "Pensioner Deceased".

My problem is that I have found other John & Jean Innes with children on census forms...... however, none of the John Innes's with wives either named Jean or Jane have the maiden name Grant......

This particular couple who married in 1820 have the right names....... I am unable to find another John Innes and Jane/Jean Grant from the right time period...... and if these are he right couple why can I find 10 children but not the birth of this Alexander 1840.... I find myself getting frustrated!!

The other reason that I think I have the right couple is that I am able to find Jean Innes nee Grant after the 1861 census...... yet I am unable to find John Innes after the 1861 census......after all the John Innes on Alexander's marriage cert states that father John Innes is dead and this would also match.

Yet again I will leave this for now in the hope that another descendant of a sibling of my Alexander and child of John Innes and Jane Grant appears... here's hoping.......

Thank you again Annette... I appreciate it!


Cheers James

[SarahND]

Hi again,
In the 1881 census in Bishopwearmouth, Durham, Alexander gives his birthplace as Scotland Drose. It is the only one that mentions a place in Scotland. Can anyone out there figure out where he might have meant? Drose is about as clearly written as anything I have ever seen on a census, so no question that it really says something else All I can come up with is Dores on Loch Ness just south of Inverness-- it only involves the transposition of two letters...

Any ideas from you geography people?

All the best,
Sarah

[Archiver]

Hi again,
In the 1881 census in Bishopwearmouth, Durham, Alexander gives his birthplace as Scotland Drose. It is the only one that mentions a place in Scotland. Can anyone out there figure out where he might have meant? Drose is about as clearly written as anything I have ever seen on a census, so no question that it really says something else All I can come up with is Dores on Loch Ness just south of Inverness-- it only involves the transposition of two letters...

Any ideas from you geography people?

All the best,
Sarah

Dores is what I came up with too - I tried saying 'Drose' in a really strong accent, and couldn't think of what might have sounded like. Montrose was another thought, and the beginning might have been lopped off...especially if he spoke in that upward way some East coasters do, and with heavier emphasis on the second syllable.

[Archiver]

The records of Macduff free church from 1843-1981 are held at the National Archives of Scotland (www.nas.gov.uk) under reference CH3/1416. It is also known as the Gardner United Free and is now a Church of Scotland church. There is quite a bit of information about the building itself available if you do a google search on it.

Hello

I would simply like to say thank you for the information that you provided and I will google the info that you gave.

Thanks! James

No problem! The records look like they contain births and marriages which may be of use!