Brick Wall- Andrew Landale

SheilaL · Post by **SheilaL** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:43 pm

I have a copy of the death Cert for George Andrew Landale d. 1906 in Kirkcaldy. Born in 1831..
It states that his fathers name was Andrew Landale (Clergyman)and his mothers maiden name was Helen Ewing. I can find no record of marriage for these two nor can I find a birth record for George.

I do know that he (George) spent time in India and married Agnes Dow of Dysart in Calcutta in 1865 and returned in the 1870's

Any clues as to why Andrew and Helen have no records???

Thanks

Sheila

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:53 pm

Hi Sheila

Lots of different reasons why Andrew and Helen do not appear on the records. If George was around 20 something when he married in Calcutta he was probably well away from Scotland at a time of religious and social turmoil.
Lots of people then broke away from the Established Church of Scotland to join the many other breakaway sects which had been formed in the late 1700's. His parents marriage could have been in the Free Church, the United Presbyterian church. They could have been Roman Catholic or Baptist or part of a few others like Episcopalian. Although many churches re-united with the Established Church of Scotland some of their records were never submitted for a variety of reasons and so have never been recorded. Others still operate independently and retain their own records.
Prior to the introduction of Statutory Registration in 1855 the Old Parochial Registers can have gaps where no births or marriages have been recorded no doubt due to a lack of reliable church record keepers.
They may have married outside the country (e.g. south of the border or across the Irish Sea)
Have you been able to locate Memorial inscriptions or look at Kierk Session records for the parish they lived in - Even ministers could be pulled up for indiscretions or castigated for abandoning their charge in favour of the Free Church
Frustrating but not an insurmountable problem.

Russell

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:54 pm

Hi Sheila
Just a thought -if your George returned to the UK in the 1870s, have you had a look to see if there is any sign of him in the 1881 census? That may lead you to the place of birth and perhaps shed further light on him.

Best wishes
Lesley

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:59 pm

This looks like them:

1881
Dwelling: No 4 Gladstone Terrace
Census Place: Burntisland, Fife, Scotland
George Andrew LANDALE M 50 M Edinburgh, Edinburgh, Scotland
Agnes Edington LANDALE M 40 F Dysart, Fife, Scotland
George Thomas LANDALE 12 M Calcutta
Frank Howden LANDALE 11 M Maldah, India
James Dalrympale LANDALE 10 M Calcutta
Thomas Daw LANDALE 9 M Maldah, India

There are also 2 servants in the household.

SheilaL · Post by **SheilaL** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:35 pm

I have yet to check the Irish records or the English..will have to take a look
Thank you for your suggestions
Regards
sheila

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:56 pm

Hi Sheila

nor can I find a birth record for George

have yet to check the Irish records or the English..will have to take a look

As you can see in the 1881 census, above, George Andrew Landale states he was born in Edinburgh. This does not necessarily make it true, but is is a starting point.

If you look at the post 1855 marriage entires of any of his children on Scotlands People, if they married in Scotland, it may helpfully state the Church they were likely to have belonged to; .e.g. "according to the forms of the Established/Baptist/Roman Catholic/Free ...etc Church" - this may give you a vital clue as to where the birth record may be found, as Russell explained above, and then your next step is to establish if the records existed and if they have survived.

Best wishes
Lesley

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:27 am

Just in case you haven’t seen these Sheila,

A parent search of India on the IGI brings up children Agnes, Thomas, Frank and James with father George Andrew Landale, mother Agnes Edington – all extracted records.

1. Agnes Margaret Millie <Landale> - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 08 NOV 1866 India Office Ecclesiastical Returns-Bengal Presidency,,Misc, , , India
2. Thomas Dow <Landale> - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 20 FEB 1872 India Office Ecclesiastical Returns-Bengal Presidency,,Misc, , , India
3. Frank Howden Landale - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 18 SEP 1869 Chr, Purneah, West Bengal, India
4. Frank Howden Landale - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 15 NOV 1869 , , India
5. James Dalrymple Landale - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 18 OCT 1870
6. James Dalrymple Landale - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 16 NOV 1870 Calcutta, West Bengal, India

Alan

SheilaL · Post by **SheilaL** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:39 pm

Yes. Thank you I have all the information on George and Agnes and their children.
Its George's parents that have been the brik wall (Andrew and Helen).
Scotlands People have no record nor can I find them on any LDS records.
Andrew is also not on "Fasti".....
One big brick wall!!!

Thanks again for your suggestions.

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:02 pm

Hi Sheila

Andrew is also not on "Fasti".....

Fasti will list only Church Of Scotland clergy.

Based entirely on a hunch to do with the given names and the time in India, and I may be wrong here...but my thoughts would be to check out the Episcopalian Clergy. As suggested before, looking at the marriages of the children on SP should suggest the church they belonged to - but perhaps you have already found and downloaded some of these these, and a quick look at them will tell you.

Also see:
http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10328
in the Talking Scot Library with regard to tracing men of the Church.

Scotlands People have no record nor can I find them on any LDS records.

Although these are the obvious "first stops" they are not the only places to look or to hold records. It is far from a "brick wall" at this early stage!

...unless of course, you have already exhausted lots of other options that you have not told us about.

Seriously, it helps up to know what info you have already, and where you have looked already, so that we are not suggesting to go and look in areas you have already covered.

Best wishes
Lesley

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:32 pm

There is a 15yr old George Landale in Edinburgh in 1841 - do you already have this?
There is also a 7yr old Ellen in Edinbugh.. total number of Landales in Edinburgh District in 1841 = 14..without looking (I've no credits) probably either one big family or a couple of inter-related groups...