Jane Kyle nee Wilson and James Kyle Rutherglen

bluedaisy · Post by **bluedaisy** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:34 am

Firstly Hello to everyone
What a wonderful forum - I spent a lot of time yesterday reading through old posts - it's far too easy to lose a day.
I have just started researching my tree and have come across a few mysteries or anomalies but perhaps it is my inexperience with these thingsand I am not interpreting correctly.

My fathers family (Lyons) came from Blantyre, back to my GG Grandad Bartholomew Lyons who was married in Rutherglen to Margaret Kyle in 1864. Margarets parents (according to the marriage entry) were James Kyle and Jane Wilson. Jane is listed as deceased on this cert 1864. The young couple lived at 80 Main Street Rutherglen.
So far so good.
In the 1861 census James Kyle is listed at 80 Main Street Rutherglen. He is 40, born in Ireland. At the same address is a Jane Kyle, 31 and a Sarah Kyle, 33. Margaret is 13 and she has 2 brothers John, 15, and William, 17. Sarah is listed as his spouse and Jane as his daughter!

James Kyle dies in 1886 at 179 King Street Rutherglen, aged 60. His death cert states he was married first to Jane Wilson, then to Sarah Cairn (?SP). Sarah is the informant.

I also managed to get Jane Kyles death cert (I think) but the writing is extremely illegible. She apparently died on June 26th 1859, at 34 years of age. Informant was James Kyle, husband. Address looks like Main Street Rutherglen. If she died in 1859, who is on the 1861 census?

Any help, suggestions, explanations gratefully received.
No doubt I have forgotten to do something obvious.
Thanks in advance,
Maura

Post by **AndrewP** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:53 pm

Hi Maura,

Welcome to TalkingScot.

On looking at the census page, I suspect that she is 3 years old and the mark after the 3 is not a 1, but some other odd line or mark. It doesn't appear to be of the same writing thickness (a different pen or hand?).

On looking at the online IGI, two births to James Kyle and Jane Wilson are shown.

JANE KYLE - Birth: 12 MAY 1856 Rutherglen, Lanarkshire
MARY KYLE - Birth: 28 FEB 1859 Rutherglen, Lanarkshire

I suspect that Jane on the census page is likely to be Jane of 1856, give or take a miscounted year.

Mary of 1859 died in 1859 a few days after her mother.

All the best,

AndrewP

bluedaisy · Post by **bluedaisy** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:12 pm

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for your swift reply. I was beginning to think the same thing about Jane's age. That is definitely the most likely explanation.

I can't find James and Jane's marriage anywhere but did manage to find James and Sarah Coin marrying in 1866 living at 88 Main St, so I think it is the same ones. Even though Sarah is listed as 21 and James as 55.
On the 1861 census he is 40 and she is listed as wife and 33 yrs old!

Perhaps James had a sense of humour when it came to authority figures?

Going off to explore the IGI now - it's new to me.
That will be another day gone! This is so addictive!

Maura

Post by **Jean Jeanie** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:50 pm

Hi Maura

Looks like the birth of James and Sarah son's Robert on the IGI

ROBERT KYLE Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth: 29 MAR 1869 Rutherglen, Lanark, Scotland

Christening:
Death:
Burial:
Parents:
Father: JAMES KYLE
Mother: SARAH COIN

Also in case you don't have it, here they are in 1881, by the looks of things:-

Dwelling: 223 King St
Census Place: Rutherglen, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203703 GRO Ref Volume 654 EnumDist 19 Page 10
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
James KYLE M 60 M Ireland
Rel: Head
Occ: Masons Labourer
Sarah KYLE M 33 F Ireland
Rel: Wife
Occ: Labourers Wife
Robert KYLE 12 M Rutherglen, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Andrew KYLE 10 M Rutherglen, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Sarah KYLE 5 F Rutherglen, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daur

Best wishes
Jean

Post by **AndrewP** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:16 pm

Hi Maura,

I was wondering if Sarah had been to the fountain of youth.

She was getting miraculously young as the years went on.

Then a look at the online IGI for James Kyle marrying in Rutherglen gave the answer - there were two wives called Sarah (I am presuming that this is one and the same James Kyle).

JAMES KYLE / SARAH VALELLY - Marriage: 18 FEB 1861 Rutherglen, Lanarkshire
JAMES KYLE /SARAH COIN - Marriage: 05 SEP 1866 Rutherglen, Lanarkshire

All the best,

AndrewP

bluedaisy · Post by **bluedaisy** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:26 pm

Thanks to Jean and Andrew for your hard work.

So piecing everything together I have;
James Kyle married to Sarah Valally in 1861 (It was a tad difficult to find this marriage on SP as they have transcribed it under William Kyle!)
They are recorded on the 1861 census living with
William, 17; John, 15; Margret, 13; and Jane, 3. Young Jane was born in Rutherglen the others are recorded as born in Ireland.
They are all Jane Wilsons children.
My interest lies with Margret who went on to marry Bartholomew Lyons in Rutherglen in 1864.

Sarah Valally died in 1865 and James went on to marry Sarah Coin.
In the 1881 census there are 3 children living with them;
Robert, 12; Andrew, 10; and Sarah, 5. The children are recorded as born in Rutherglen and Sarah Coin is recorded as born in Ireland.
James' death extract doesn't even mention Sarah Valally. Whether she had any children to James is another investigation.

I'm still getting to grips with the IGI - I don't seem to get the same info out of it as you guys do. I didn't get any joy with trying to find the births of Jane and James' children.

I guess I'm not finding James and Jane marriage or births becasue they occurred in Ireland. The census gives no county names to go on and since James seemed quite coy about his age I don't even have a year. He was 40 in 1861, 55 in 1866, 60 in 1881, 60 in 1886. Jane was 34 in 1859.

I'm off to check the 1851 census again!

Checking anything in Ireland just seems like a nightmare to a newbie like me!

Maura

Post by **Jean Jeanie** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:58 pm

Much snipped

bluedaisy wrote:

In the 1881 census there are 3 children living with them;
Robert, 12; Andrew, 10; and Sarah, 5. The children are recorded as born in Ireland and Sarah Coin is recorded as born in Ireland.

Hi Maura

The children shown in the 1881 census were born in Rutherglen not Ireland.

To find the children on the IGI, go to the "advanced search." Insert the parents names in the sections on the right of the page. You should then be able to find the birth records.

Best wishes
Jean

Post by **AndrewP** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:59 pm

Hi Maura,

They gave better information to the census enumerator in 1871. James and Sarah, both gave the counties in Ireland, plus two children born in Rutherglen since the previous census (the older ones in the 1881 census).

It looks like James was in Ireland at least up to about 1848, when Margaret was born, and was in Rutherglen by 1856 when Jane was born. So don't count on finding him in the 1851 census in Scotland.

All the best,

AndrewP

Post by **Jean Jeanie** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:24 pm

Hi Maura

I can find 1 child born to James and Sarah Valelly

JAMES KYLE Pedigree
Male
Event(s):
Birth: 07 MAY 1865 Rutherglen, Lanark, Scotland

Christening:
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: JAMES KYLE
Mother: SARAH VALELLY

Best wishes
Jean

bluedaisy · Post by **bluedaisy** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:23 am

Wow, you guys are fantastic!

What a load of kids James had!!

Jean, I had just noticed my mistake in the previous post. I didn't check what I had written before submitting.

Indeed I did not find them on the 1851 census, but will go back to the '71 census to get the Irish counties. That will be useful in trying to cross over to Irish records.

My mums side are all Irish and they have proved very difficult to get anywhere with.

Perhaps I will start with another line of my dads tree? Or I could just get on with some proper work! I am self-employed and being at home with the PC is just too tempting for my new hobby!!

Thanks again, Maura