My Missing Great Granny!

[KellyO]

HELP!!!

Over the past 10 years I have been researching my family. However, I have one g-granny who is driving me demented!! I have managed to find her death, the birth of 8 children and 1 marriage, despite the fact that she used 4 surnames over the course of her life. However, I cannot for the life of me find this woman’s birth.

I have always believed her birth year to be 1884, based on 2 census entries, her birth
cert and marriage cert.Recently, one of my mum’s cousins who lived with my g-gran as a child, confirmed her birth date was 26/2/1884. I still haven’t been able to find her.

I am wondering if anyone here could give me some advice, or point me in the right direction on my mystery.

On my g-gran’s death cert she is shown as Agnes Napier SANDERSON formerly PAGE. Her DoD was 28/11/1964. Her parents are listed as Alexander LIVINGSTON (Millworker) and Agnes SHANKS. Her son was the informant and these are the same parent details as her marriage cert in 1901.

Agnes married a Robert PAGE on 17/7/1901. She gave her name as Agnes Mary LIVINGSTON, aged 17 and a Laundry Worker. As she married in the July of the year, I used the address given to try the 1901 census. I couldn’t find her with the surname LIVINGSTON, but found a 17 year old laundry worker called Agnes NAPIER at the same address. She was living with a John and Helen NAPIER as their daughter. I guess that answers the NAPIER name she sometimes used, but I haven’t worked out their connection yet. As her parents were deceased by her marriage, was she adopted by a relative?

Anyhoo, I carried on over the years and couldn’t find Agnes anywhere on the 1891 census, but finally struck lucky finding John and Helen NAPIER with a 7 year old Agnes in Salford, Manchester! Both censuses indicate Agnes was born in Scotland, in particular Leith, where she lived most of her adult life.

I can find no trace of Agnes divorcing Robert PAGE, but after they separated, she seems to be living as the common law wife of an Alexander SANDERSON who is my g-grandfather.

I am truly flummoxed on this woman. She has cost me a small mortgage on Scotlands People trying umpteen variations over the years!! I am hoping someone looking at this with a fresh pair of eyes might have some suggestions on what to do next?

Many thanks in advance.

Kelly

[Tracey]

Hi Kelly

Where do you think she was born and have you looked for a birth of Agnes Shanks if there is a chance she was born illigitimate ? Between 1880/90 there are 16 returns on SP

[Tracey]

Also clutching at straws until someone who makes more sense than me comes along

Was she born in Govan ? There is one female birth of a Napier and one Sanderson in 1884 Govan

[LesleyB]

Hi Kelly

Can you maybe clarify a couple of points?

"I have always believed her birth year to be 1884, based on 2 census entries."
"Both censuses indicate Agnes was born in Scotland, in particular Leith, where she lived most of her adult life."
"Recently, one of my mum’s cousins who lived with my g-gran as a child, confirmed her birth date was 26/2/1884."

1891 - she is with John and Helen NAPIER as 7 year old Agnes Napier living in Salford, Manchester - indicated as born Scotland, no placename given? (I'd be estimating year of birth as 1883 from that, but obviously early 1884 is a possibility)
1901 - she is a 17 year old laundry worker called Agnes NAPIER, living with a John and Helen NAPIER as their daughter. Place of birth is given as Leith?
There is an Agnes Livingstone born in Midlothian in 1884, seems to be Grange, Edinburgh - I take it she is not that one?

"Her parents are listed as Alexander LIVINGSTON (Millworker) and Agnes SHANKS. Her son was the informant and these are the same parent details as her marriage cert in 1901."

The parents are both noted as deceased on the marriage entry? Have you found the death entries for them?
Can you confirm the age Agnes says she was at the time of marraige?
I'm not seeing an obvious marriage on SP for Alexander and Agnes....
Again, I'm not doing too well on SP for a death of an Agnes Shanks/Livingston(e)
On the marriage entry in 1901 does it say Alexander LIVINGSTON (Millworker) and Agnes SHANKS or Alexander LIVINGSTON (Millworker) and Agnes Livingstone m.s. SHANKS?

"Agnes married a Robert PAGE on 17/7/1901. She gave her name as Agnes Mary LIVINGSTON, aged 17 and a Laundry Worker. "

• When she died her surname was Sanderson - you have not found a marriage for Agnes to Alexander Sanderson? How was she described on the death entry - were the words "common law wife" actually used on the death entry? Or other wording?

Best wishes
Lesley

[KellyO]

Tracey and Lesley thank you both for your replies. I will do my best to answer with the information I have.

Tracey I couldn't find the Govan Agnes Napier you referred to. I have some credits left on SP so will try another search. However, I am starting to strongly consider the illegitemacy possibility, but with 2 choices of parents, it is anybody's guess from then on!

Lesley, I had previously checked the Grange Agnes, but her name comes up as Agnes Bowden LIVINGSTONE with totally different parents. The Scottish birthplace connections were taken from the 2 census entries with place of birth being given as Scotland in 1891 and Leith on the 1901 census. Since 1901, following the addresses on her marriage and children's birth certificates and her own death cert, she lived in and around Leith.

I have tried finding marriage and death certs for Alexander LIVINGSTON and Agnes SHANKS, with no luck. I have also searched the same for John and Helen NAPIER. I still don't know what the NAPIER's true connection is to my G- gran. My Agnes stated her age was 17 on her 1901 marriage cert, which ties in again with the 1884 birth year. Her mother's maiden surname was shown as M/S SHANKS on both this marriage cert and Agnes's death cert.

On her death cert her son named her as - Agnes Napier SANDERSON formerly PAGE, widow of Robert PAGE. As I said before I haven't found proof of Agnes divorcing Robert. I believe they separated, as Agnes made a declaration on several of her later children's birth certs, stating that Robert her husband was not the father and Alexander SANDERSON signed that he was.

Something else I noticed on Alexander SANDERSON's death cert from 1947, which was again registered by the same son who registered Agne's death, was that he named him as Alexander SANDERSON, married to Agnes NAPIER. The son obviously knew of the Napier connection and Agnes's parent's names of LIVINGSTON and SHANKS, but as he is sadly no longer with us, I cannot ask any questions. Just in case Agnes had tried marrying Alexander under the name NAPIER, I searched for a marriage under SANDERSON and NAPIER and came up with only one which didn't match.

I have managed to crack one or two family mysteries along the way, with changes in surnames and such like, but Agnes is proving incredibly elusive.

Any further thoughts are most welcome, as I feel I am in an Agnes groundhog day, going around and around and coming back to the same place, with no sign of Agnes!!

Kelly

[Tracey]

Sorry to confuse things but this is the census i was refering to, not knowing or reading the post properly as to where she was from .

1891 Scotland Census
Name: Agnes Livingston
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1884
Relationship: Daur (Daughter)
Father's Name: Alexander
Mother's Name: Agnes
Gender: Female
Where born: Govan, Lanarkshire
Registration district: Govan
Civil parish: Govan
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 53 Harmony Row
Occupation: Scholar
Household
Alexander Livingston Head 33 Evangelist Govan
Agnes Livingston 40 Wife
Agnes Livingston 7 Daughter
Alexander Livingston 3 Son
John Houston 27 Lodger

[KellyO]

Tracey don't worry about any confusion!!! My g-granny Agnes has caused me a lot along the way!! I appreciate your help. I hadn't come across that entry before and it would be a bit of excitement if we had an evangalist in the family!! I just wish I could tie together the use of the surnames NAPIER and LIVINGSTON. I know the LIVINGSTON name has come from Agnes herself on certs, so can only assume they were indeed her parents, but where the NAPIER couple come into it I have no idea. Aunt or Uncle???? Who knows?

I am starting to think strongly about her being illegitimate and "adopted" possibly by family members, or there is some deep dark family mystery that Agnes kept to herself!

Regards

Kelly

[LesleyB]

Hi Kelly

Probably you have already tried this angle, but have you traced the Napiers backwards in time and forwards - just to see if parents might be established, or a place which may coincide with Agnes earlier on. I've not had any luck with a search for the marraige of the Napiers in Scotland - not looked at England yet, but that may be a possibility given their appearnace in Manchester. Where did they say they were born on the census data you have, and ages stated? What were the occupations given?

Best wishes
Lesley

[nelmit]

Hi Kelly

Probably you have already tried this angle, but have you traced the Napiers backwards in time and forwards - just to see if parents might be established, or a place which may coincide with Agnes earlier on. I've not had any luck with a search for the marraige of the Napiers in Scotland - not looked at England yet, but that may be a possibility given their appearnace in Manchester. Where did they say they were born on the census data you have, and ages stated? What were the occupations given?

Best wishes
Lesley

Here they are at Salford in 1891 Lesley - all born Scotland
John Napier 42
Helen Napier 45
Agnes Napier 7

and 1901 at the address at Canongate Agnes gives when she married as Agnes Livingston the same year -
John Napier 55 b Leith
Helen Napier 55 b Kelso
Agnes Napier 17 b Leith

Regards,
Annette

[KellyO]

Hi Lesley and Annette,

Lesley, the census information Annette has given you, is what I have also. That is where I have taken the Scotland and Leith birthplaces from, although I know census info is sometimes not the most reliable. I have searched high and low for the Napiers to try and establish their connection to Agnes, seeing as she seems to have quoted the Livingston's as her parents. I tried in particular for death certs, to see if Agnes perhaps was the informant, but as with Agnes's birth, no luck there.

I was signed up to Ancestry for a year and scoured it for various things and that is how I came across Agnes down in Manchester on the 1891 census. I am swithering whether to sign up again and keep bashing away. She must have started somewhere!!! I refuse to believe my g-gran was planted in the UK aged 7 by aliens!!!!

Anyway thanks for your time on my query, I very much appreciate it, cause I am at a loss on this one!

Best wishes

Kelly

Ps forgot to say that on the 1891 census John Napier gives his occupation as General Labourer and in 1901 it looks like Tallow Melter or Maker.