Thomas Welsh, an ongoing puzzle.

[BarJoh]

Hi all,
Barjoh is a combination of our names (Barbara and John) and we live in a country town in Victoria, Australia.
We joined Talking Scots to learn more about John's ancestors and to meet people living in Scotland.

Could someone please help us find the birth of Thomas Welsh and/or the marriage cert. of his parents?

Thomas Welsh married Isabella Rolley in Dreghorn 1893, and his parents appear as Richard Welsh (deceased) and Ann Jane MS Dunbar.
When Thomas died (1913) his parents appear as Richard Montgomery Welsh (deceased) and Ann Jane Welsh MS Dunbar (deceased).
We have been unable to find evidence of their marriage (Richard and Ann) and also unable to find them on a census together, in Scotland, Ireland or anywhere else.
Ann married again in Ireland in 1871 to Joseph Moor. This info was found on the birth cert. of their son, William James Moor (b.1872 Kirkmichael).
The Moor family appear on the 1881 census, Joseph, Ann, William James and Thomas (called Thomas Welch Moor aged 13 and listed as 'son'). They are living at Fisherton Cot House, Maybole.
Joseph, Ann and Thomas's birthplaces are all listed as 'Ireland.'

On the 1901 census Thomas Welsh listed his birthplace as 'Ireland.'
On the 1911 census Thomas listed his birthplace as 'Maybole.'

Thinking he may have learned something new about his birth when Ann Jane Moor died in 1906, Ayr, we looked for a listing in Maybole and found the birth of a Thomas Welsh born in 1868 (illegitimate) to Isabella Welsh. No father named.

Where was he born, and why did he give two birthplaces on census forms?
Why did Ann Jane Moor, list herself on Thomas's wedding cert. as Ann Jane Welsh, when she had subsequently married Joseph Moor in 1871?
'William J Moor' is a witness on Thomas and Isabella's marriage certificate.

We hope that all makes sense. We've tried to put it as clearly as possible.

We look forward to using this forum, and to helping others where possible. Barbara and John

[AndrewP]

Hi BarJoh (Barbara & John),



The online IGI shows the christening of a Richard Alex Dunbar or Walsh, son of Richard Walsh and Ann Dunbar, in Aghalee, County Antrim, Ireland on 11-Jun-1866.

As spelling was more variable then than it is now, this could well be a brother to the Thomas that you are asking about.

It may be worth re-checking the searches that you have done for Welsh, by trying the surname as Walsh.

All the best,

AndrewP

[BarJoh]

Thanks for that AndrewP,
We've seen that listing, which appears to be from a contributor, rather than from a genuine record. We've tried all combinations of spellings Welsh/Walsh/Welshe/Welch Moore/Welsh Moor etc., ad infinitum.
Ann Jane Moor's death cert. shows her as the 'widow of Joseph Moor' and the informant is 'William James Moor, Son, Present). So we are puzzled why Ann is listed with the surname 'Welsh' on Thomas and Isabella's marriage certificate. Clearly, William James Moor appears to be Thomas's half brother.
I suppose we are wondering if there is a link between the Isabella Welsh who gave birth to a Thomas Welsh in Maybole in 1868, and the Isabella Welsh who married James Ferguson in 1873. The witnesses at this marriage are Charles Ferguson and Jane McCall, who went on to marry a few months later. Curiously, Charles Ferguson and Jane MS McCall are registering the birth of their child Margaret, on the same page as Thomas and Isabella registering the birth of their first (illegitimate) child, Margaret, in 1893. Thomas and Isabella married shortly after. But the witness coincidence is very strange.
What do you think? Could Thomas have been given as a small child, by Isabella Welsh to Richard and Ann, who may have been relatives?
Barbara and John

[BarJoh]

Sorry, AndrewP, I made a couple of errors:

Thomas Welsh and Isabella Rolley married at Drybridge, Dundonald in December, 1893.

Charles Ferguson and Jane MS McCall, named their child Agnes.

[AndrewP]

... We've seen that listing, which appears to be from a contributor, rather than from a genuine record.

Hi Barbara and John,

That listing is from the records (Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881), not the contributor submissions. I had already ignored the submitted entries to the IGI.

It is in GS Film No 0908817, which contains the following items:

1. The Belfast and province of Ulster directory
2. Kilrea Parish Church, Co. Londonderry, baptisms 1829-1861, marriages 1829-1849, burials 1829-1862
3. Registry book of the united parishes of Aghalee, Augallon, and Magheramisk, County Antrim
4. The Belfast and province of Ulster directory - v. 4 (1858-1859)

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I would expect to find it in #3 of the items on that film.

All the best,

AndrewP

[BarJoh]

We tried those links, but can't see how to search from there. Have already been to the Irish site, but all we get there is a whole load of identical entries, and a prohibitive charges to look at each one, with only one marriage partner showing.
All we can hope is that someone looks at this topic and recognizes the names, and can help us go forward.

Do you happen to know how to access Scottish newspaper archives, so that we can learn more about Thomas's death? He died on 10th May, 1913, at Workman's Dwellings, King Street, Ayr. Reading the RCE (Register of Corrected Entries, dated 23rd May 1913) 'the deceased fell from a verandah and fractured his skull.' The family home was only five minutes away at 4 Blackhouse Crescent, Whitletts, Ayr.

Thanks

[AndrewP]

Hi Barbara and John,

The Scotsman: 12-May-1913, page 6

• A fatal fall at Ayr.
  The dead body of a labourer named Thomas Welsh, belonging to Whilletts, near Ayr, was discovered early on Saturday morning in the well of a stair in a tenement known as Workman's Buildings, King Street, Ayr. As the man's cap was found on the second floor, it is surmised that he had fallen over the railing to the well below. Dr Brown, the Burgh Medical Officer, saw the body at the mortuary, and pronounced death to be due to fracture of the skull.

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As the RCE describes it as a verandah, I envisage it as being similar to the Edinburgh tenement in the following picture from Google Streetview (click on the link below).

Edinburgh tenement view

All the best,

AndrewP

[BarJoh]

Thank you very much for that newspaper piece. Never thought we'd find any reference to the accident.

We jave a photo of the actual place, found on an Australia forum. I've find tried to post a link here but don't know how to do it. If you give me an email address I'll send it to you, so you can put it in the forum for those interested.

[BarJoh]

Sorry, should have said that the place was known locally as 'Spion Kop,' named after an old battle, apparently.

[AndrewP]

Sorry, should have said that the place was known locally as 'Spion Kop,' named after an old battle, apparently.

The Battle of Spion Kop was fought on 23-24 January 1900 as part of the Second Boer War (1899-1902 in South Africa).

All the best,

AndrewP