Elizabeth Downie, nee Bowie, Linlithgow, her death?

[Andersonic]

Some time ago I discovered direct ancestors in Elizabeth Downie, who married a Thomas Cummins in Bolton Lancs England, but had herself been born in Linlithgow.
That led me to explore the families of her parents, James Downie, shoemaker of Linlithgow, b 1814, and died early 1870 there, and his wife, Elizabeth (or Elisabeth) Bowie, born July 1815. They married in 1837, and I know of children born Robert (1838), Isabella( 1840), the Elizabeth Downie who became a direct ancestor of mine, born 1842, who died in 1920 in Southport Lancs England, Hugh(1844), and quite a gap where there may have been other children of whom I know nothing, until an Allison(sic) born 1859. Allison seems to have gone to England with her sister, and later I found her living with her and her family in Southport, but I cannot seem to find anything to get a date for Mum Elisabeth's death.
Obviously the family seems to have split up by the 1871 census, unsurprisingly as James had died ther previous year - I've searched for ages on there trying to find at least Elizabeth. The nearest I've found is at Crossroads, Aberdour, Fife, where there seems to be an Elizabeth Downie of about the right age, as an agricultural labourer - but the place of birth is given as Auchterderran, which I think is where many of the "real" Downies were born, - and Elizabeth is a common name.
Would I be grasping at straws to explore the chance that this is James' widow? I can't seem to find her with any surviving family in 1871 - but then I can't seem to find a likely death for her? Death of both parents would provide an excellent reason for both girls moving south - in service, Elizabeth at least, seemed to be. I'd hunted to see if Mum Elizabeth had moved with them but as far as I can find she seems to have ... vanished.
There are other strange things, although as I've been looking at censuses via "Ancestry" transcriptions - which do not allow one to see the original image, that's not surprising:
In 1861, the family is in Linlithgow, James 66, Elizabeth 65, (oddly older than they should be) with Isabella 22, Hugh 17, ? John?7, Allison 1 -and Isabella's son, John, 8 months old.
Earlier, in 1851 they are on the High Street in Linlithgow, but the ages are James 36, Elizabeth 35, Robert 13, Isabella 11, Elizabeth 9 and young Hugh 7.
I've not managed to find the parents in 1841, but haven't yet given up on that, but would dearly love to find what happened to Elizabeth the mother. Suggestions welcomed - and sorry to have been so long-winded explaining! Thank you all at least for reading this screed, too.

[AndrewP]

Hi Andersonic,

Digital images of the Scottish documents can be seen on http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk on a pay per view basis. I looked at the 1861 census page, and it shows the unexpectedly old parents' ages. I would guess that the enumeration form may have been filled in with them as 46 and 45, but was mistranscribed into the enumeration book that we see, as 66 and 65. The parents' ages in the 60s don't match the children's young ages, whereas 46 and 45 would be more realistic for the mother to be of child bearing age.

In the 1861 census, the mother Elizabeth (like all of her family) shows her birthplace as Linlithgow. Does the 1851 census agree with that? If "yes" then the Auchterderran one in 1871 is looking unlikely (unless that is wrong info).

I am fairly sure that I have found Elizabeth's death in 1901 in "N L Hospital" (presumably North Leith Hospital) in Leith, not far from where daughter Alison / Allison / Alice is living at the time (she registered the death). When registering the death, Alison didn't know her maternal grandparents' names (that box is blank). Alison's (Alice) marriage certificate shows her to have been living not far from there in at the time (1887). There are enough other clues on the death certificate to be quite confident that this is the right one. She died about 5 weeks before the census in 1901. In the 1881 census, she is in daughter Isabella's household in Edinburgh (Ancestry shows her as mother of the head of the household - a look at the certificate on ScotlandsPeople tells you otherwise).

All the best,

AndrewP

[Andersonic]

Thank you very much for your helpful reply. It ha given me a lot to explore further.
I must say, I'd not expected Mum Elizabeth to have lasted until 1901, and had only sought her in 1871, not later. I have the 1851 and 1861 census, and "Linlithgow" is the stated birthplace in both. I'd also assumed a transcription error in 1861 as you say. Thank you for confirming that you agree.

I was unaware that Allison had returned to Scotland - in 1881 she is in the census at76 Tulketh Street Southport, with her sister's family, and I'd assumed that she was living there, as she is not described as visitor - mind you, she isn't down as sister in law, either! I've not found her in any other census - yet - so had assumed she had married and surname had changed. I shall hunt her again, now. As the youngest daughter she may have had limited awareness of the names of grandparents, thank you for that. And I'd certainly not thought of looking under "Alice", although obviously I'd looked for her under the more normal spelling of "Alison". I shall also try to find that 1887 marriage.
I could only find the Auchterderran entry in 1871 that looked at all likely for Elizabeth the mother. I'd tried to trace each child, hoping she'd be with one or another, to no avail, so thought it must be death or re-marriage.
Ah well, shouldn't have set all my ancestral eggs in the Ancestry Basket! Thank you yet again for your kind efforts on my behalf.

[Andersonic]

AndrewP, I've been poking about given the information that you gave me, neither adopting it wholesale nor disregarding it, and thinking laterally - I've found more than one Elizabeth / Isabella / Al(l)ison combo in the Edinburgh area, and some with similar parent names in the area - but I think I may have stumbled on the survivors in 1871! Still not certain about that Edinburgh death, though.
Is there somewhere called "Pathhead or Dunniker" in and appropriately near area? If so, there's this little mob, at "Nether Street, Pathhead":
Elisabeth Downes 55 keeps house b Linlithgow
Hugh Downes son 23 Shoemaker b Linlithgow
John Downes son 17 Shoemaker " " " " (Isabella was registered as the mother of this child in July 1860, by the way, so may be grandchild)
Allenor Downes daughter 11 Scholar b Linlithgow (Another variant?)
- Do you think this may be more likely? I can't seem to see from maps the relationship of the places, and Ancestry doesn't state if Elisabeth is a widow, but I feel that this may be worth following? Your opinion?

[AndrewP]

Hi Andersonic,

Downes is an Ancestry transcription error for your 1871 census family. Look at the original on ScotlandsPeople and you will see them as the Downie family (Elizabeth, John, Aloner and Hugh), and I would be quite sure that this is the family group that you are following. When you look closely at the original page, "Aloner" is most probably Alisson - so misindexed differently by ScotlandsPeople and Ancestry.

The moral of the story is that Ancestry is a good tool to search for Scottish people in the censuses, but it is always worth looking at the originals on ScotlandsPeople to see the primary documents for yourself, so that you can record what is really there, not what can be transcriptions of variable quality.

In 1891, Elizabeth is with daughter Isabella and her family. The addresses of Elizabeth and her daughters in Edinburgh and Leith over the years are all very close to one another.

Daughter Isabella pre-deceased her mother by seven years, dying at the address they were both at in 1891. Her death certificate shows her parents to be the names that you found decades earlier in Linlithgow.

In the 1911 census, Alison (widowed) and her family can be found at an address in the west of the city. Her three eldest daughters are all described as rubber workers. Their home was within walking distance of the rubber mill in Fountainbridge. Her younger children were still at school. Alison died 20 years after her mother, at this same address (parents' names as expected).

All the best,

AndrewP

[Andersonic]

Thank you very much, AndrewP. I agree, Ancestry is merely a tool, and with reference to Scotland, rather a blunt tool. As most of my people are north of England, rather than Scots, I've had little reason to contemplate Scotlands' People as a source, and several have tried to convince me it can be rather expensive to use, but I can see that I'm going to have to "invest", my curiousity will not allow otherwise!
I'd decided as I said that "Downes" was a mis-transcription of "Downie" in the 1871 entry, as shown on Ancestry, deducing largely from location and names - but my goodness, there are an awful lot of Downies proffering themselves in the area, with many of the "right" names and parents' names, to try and confuse one! I'd been trying for ages to sort out several very similar families in what I felt was the same general location.
I've now found Isabella with her husband John Brown, and Mum in 1881, thank you, and realised from the 1901 census with John and the remains of his family that Isabella must also have died prior to that date, but have not yet had time to follow that up. I've assumed John to be working away from home in the 1891 census, but don't really feel a need to follow that, "John Brown" is a name to give one nightmares trying to find alone.
I appreciate your way of giving me hints and clues, but making me do the actual work myself - thank you again. Unlike many people I am uneasy if I'm handed lumps of research on a plate, feeling guilty for piggy-backing on others' efforts and investments. You have pointed me in the right direction to fill in some gaps, and I greatly appreciate it.
My link is via Elizabeth/ Elisabeth who moved to Bolton in Lancashire, and there married a Thomas Cummins, of unknown Irish origin, before they moved to, and settled in Southport, Lancs, where Elizabeth died in 1920, having produced my great grandfather as her second son. It was only when I realised that she was not in fact of Irish origin herself that I searched for her origins, and realised that as she was Scottish born, I had a far better chance of tracking her down, as the Scottish systems of recording do indeed seem far superior to the English

[trish1]

several have tried to convince me it can be rather expensive to use,

Scotland has the cheapest priced certificate images compared to virtually any country in the world. They also contain more family information than English certificates. There are some English marriage certificates - from religious sources - available via Ancestry & I've found some US certificates (from one or two states) available online at no charge but for the most part BDM registries find family history a great source of wealth.

I have many more certificates & wills from my family members in Scotland than from those in England - or my most recent ancestors in Australia (very expensive)

Good luck with your searches.

Trish