Knox, Knox who's there ? Jemima.....

[grannysrock]

Good evening,
I got myself in a fankel when I should be sorting stuff for xmas..:
A few hours ago I started again on Grace Knox née Nicoll , sister of a seafaring ancestor. Grace was the 4th child of William Nicoll and Grace Scott born 1826 in South Ronaldsay. She died in Leith in 1893 , widow of James Knox a shoemaker. Death informant was her niece Isabella Dryburgh (née Nicoll).

In the 1881 census in Leith, Grace was a widow , using her maiden name, boarding with a Rose Clark aged 100 .
The only child in the indexes for Grace/James is Robert Knox born 1856. Little Robert died the next year.
I could find no marriage or other children in the IGI.
I had previously failed to find Grace as Knox or Nicoll in the 1871 census. ( And I still can't)

So today I found Grace and James Knox on the 1861 census in Leith.
This gave James' age as 36 and p.o.b. Kilmarnock , occupation bootcloser.
Grace' age is about right at 35 , pob given as Leith ( wrong)
Plus 2 children William (11) apprentice bootcloser and Jemima (6) both born Leith.

I wasn't certain if Jemima & William were Grace's children or not , so I found ( at least I thought I had found ) the death certificate of Jemima Knox . She died in 1875 in Johnstone, Renfrew - married to
James Lively . Death cert gives age as 22 , mother Grace Knox née Nichol (good ) , father William Knox shoemaker.
At first glance I thought hubby had got his father in law's name wrong. But then I looked at the death informant and here the fun began..

the informant was William Knox father , his mark ( present ), witnessed by the assistant registrar.

This means
1) there were 2 Jemima Knox's born to Grace Nicol's about 1853-54 with shoemaker fathers or
2) the assistant registrar has made at least 2 errors ... or
3) James changed his name to William ( but this isn't the case - see later)

Ok I thought lets check the marriage entry ( 1874 Johnstone) for James Lively and Jemima Knox - it gets worse -
Jemima's parents are given as Alexander Knox ( shoemaker) and Jane Knox ms Nicol .

To recap ;
Jemima 1 born c.1854 Leith, Parents, James Knox (died 1863) & Grace Nicoll (d 1893 ) (derived from 1861 census Leith , but no birth reg )
Jemima 2 born c.1853 , married James Lively 1874 Johnstone, Parents Alexander Knox & Jane Nicol.
Jemima 3 born c.1853 died 1875 Johnstone, married to James Lively, Parents William Knox and Grace Nichol, death informant father William Knox.

All 3 of the fathers are shoemakers/bootclosers.

Now I am totally confused. Who is this Jemima ? . Did she lie about her parents ? ( The above marriage is Catholic - was that a problem for her family ? ) If so who is the "father" who acted as death informant.

If she isn't the Leith one, what happened to her ? And why does this Jemima have 2 different sets of parents ?

Finally, William can't be James because -

James Knox husband of Grace Nicol died in 1863 in Kilmarnock . His death infomant was his father Robert Knox. (and his mother was Mary Stewart) So he definitely didn't change his name to William and he definaaately wasn't the informant to the above Jemima's death.

I've kind of rambled through this in order of discovery - I hope someone can make sense of this and tell me if the 2 or 3 Jemima Knox's are the same or not. Maybe then I can add her to my family tree ...


My head hurts

Sally

[paddyscar]

Sally - no wonder your head hurts

I was going to suggest that two brothers married two sisters, each having a daughter named Jemima 1 year apart until I realized both Jemimas married James Lively.

The variation on the father's first name, could be that the father had a first and middle name, and one of the registrations used the official first name, and one used his common name. My husband is Joseph Patrick, but he is called Patrick, and it causes no end of confusion (then there's his cousin, whose name is Patrick, and known as Rick). Perhaps your solution lies in verifying the full names of the parents?

Good luck with your riddle.

Frances

[LesleyB]

Sally
If, as you mentioned,

the informant was William Knox father , his mark ( present ), witnessed by the assistant registrar

and as you are probably aware, then the father would probably not have been aware what had been written down for his name. I wonder how easily distracted this registrar was? Maybe it was coming up to lunchtime and he was about to nip round the corner to William Smith's baker's shop shop for a pie.....

It seems a terrible muddle, but surely there couldn't be two Jemima Knoxes married to two James Livelys at around the same time? Neither are frequent name combinations. It seems highly unlikley, especially as they "both" seem to be in Johnstone. Do the ages of the Jemima married in 1874 and the one who died in 1875 (aged 22) make sense?

I know you coudn't find Grace, but what about Jemima in the 1871? Any luck there?

What also seems to jump out is the 1861 where the familly are in Leith, but she married in Johnstone - and her mother is in Leith in the 1881. So, it doesn't look as if the family had moved west. Not impossible but usually (not always) I'd be expecting her to be married Leith area, so tht is an interesting twist as well. There's a niggle in my head - are that census family the right lot? Or, are the Johnstone lot a different family?

Best wishes
Lesley

[AndrewP]

Good I had previously failed to find Grace as Knox or Nicoll in the 1871 census. ( And I still can't)

My head hurts

Sally

Hi Sally,

No wonder your head hurts.

The 1871 census gives twelve Grace Knox's. Have you eliminated them all? Three of them are in the 40 to 50 age range - appropriate to the birth year of 1826 that you have.

The three are in the following registration districts:
Dalmellington, Ayrshire
Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire
Hutchesonstown, Lanarkshire/Glasgow City

Are any of them possibilities? The other option that I tried was first name Grizzel (another form of Grace), but that produced no results.

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

[LesleyB]

And just to confuse things further, the IGI has this as a submission:

James White Knox
Event(s):
Birth: About 1809 Johnstone, Renfrew, Scotland

Marriages:
Spouse: Grace Mc Donald
Marriage: About 1834 Johnstone, Renfrew, Scotland

Best wishes
Lesley

[grannysrock]

happy new year to you all , sorry for the delay in replying- i have been on internet-free holidays...

Andrew

The 1871 census gives twelve Grace Knox's. Have you eliminated them all? Three of them are in the 40 to 50 age range - appropriate to the birth year of 1826 that you have.

The three are in the following registration districts:
Dalmellington, Ayrshire
Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire
Hutchesonstown, Lanarkshire/Glasgow City

I have looked at the above 3 plus the 51 yr old in Renfrew. The only one that could be Grace is the Hutchesonstown lady - a 45 year old widow , boarder , washerwoman pob Thurso . The last bit seems to discount her, but the Nicolls may have had their roots in that area , so it might be her .

Frances

Perhaps your solution lies in verifying the full names of the parents?

Unfortunately I cannot find any evidence of any of the Johnstone Jemima's parents ...
My Grace Nicoll was just that I think. I can't spot James Knox birth ( although there are some baptisms for Robert Knox/ Mary Stewart children in Wigtownshire ) .


Lesley

It seems a terrible muddle, but surely there couldn't be two Jemima Knoxes married to two James Livelys at around the same time?

Agreed - those 2 Jemima's are the same .

Do the ages of the Jemima married in 1874 and the one who died in 1875 (aged 22) make sense?

Yes 1874 Jemima was 21 when she married.

I know you coudn't find Grace, but what about Jemima in the 1871? Any luck there?

None whatsoever !

What also seems to jump out is the 1861 where the familly are in Leith, but she married in Johnstone - and her mother is in Leith in the 1881. So, it doesn't look as if the family had moved west. Not impossible but usually (not always) I'd be expecting her to be married Leith area, so tht is an interesting twist as well. There's a niggle in my head - are that census family the right lot? Or, are the Johnstone lot a different family?

AS James Knox died in 1863 in Kilmarnock - it is possible that the entire family left Leith- with Grace returning alone later ( her brother and sister were still there ).

I think it's very possible that Johnston Jemima is not Leith Jemima - but what happened to the latter ? ( there are only 5 deaths of Jemima Knoxes on SP ) and how likely that their mothers were both Nicolls and their fathers shoemakers ? mmm I 've got that headache again ....
But if Johnston Jemima's father ( whatever his name actually was) was her death informant- then they can't be the same person since James was already dead. Paracetamol please.
Urggggggg.


btw if anyone has 1871 for England - please could you check for me if Grace and Jemima are doon there ?

Sally

[SarahMackay]

Hi Sally

I have had a look on Ancestry.com for any entries for either Jemima or Grace in England for the 1871 Census.

I checked for both Knox and Nicol (and all the possible variations in between) and drawn a blank.

Sorry

Sarah

[grannysrock]

Sarah

Thank you very much for that. It was just a notion - I've a number of ancestors and relatives who dipped their toes in Southern or other "furrin" waters and presumably found it a tad hot for their liking, returning hastily to Auld Scotia - so I thought it was worth a shout.

Very kind of you to look.
I think I am going to have to somewhat reluctantly put this branch to one side for a wee while till I get some inspiration.

Best of luck with your searches

Sally