Did I jump the gun????.....

[bethsam]

I have been tracing a line for 2 years now and thought rather complacently that all was well but a new connection with a wonderful lady called Jean in NZ has made me reconsider a leap of faith I've recently made. I wonder if anyone out there could help?

I have a firm line up to the marriage of one James Clymmie (also in census records as Clemie/Clymie) and Margaret Hope in 1854, Auchinleck, Ayrshire. James' parents I have never been able to trace and have come to terms with that brick wall but Margaret was the daughter of James Hope and Agnes Neilson - I have various certificates/census records showing this.

In one of the census records, 1881, Margaret now Clemie gives her name as Agnes and there is no doubt I have the right family.

As James Hope died before 1851 and there is no record of his marriage, brick wall number 2 accepted. Their children were Thomas abt 1825, John 1827, Charles 1829 and the said Margaret abt 1836.

Agnes Neilson, however, said she was born in the Leadhills, Lanarkshire - so there I went to look for her (virtually speaking!) The death certificate 1877, Auchinleck, Ayrshire and census records from 1851 - 1871 show her to have been born between 1797 and 1806. Her death certificate gives her parents as Thomas Neilson and Agnes (maiden name blank). I then looked for Neilson girls from Leadhills around that time with parents called Thomas and Agnes - no joy but given the Margaret/Agnes Hope name swap in 1881, I checked out Thomas and Margaret and hit a rich vein of ancestors if I accepted that Agnes was really Margaret Neilson born 1799.

The naming conventions of this family and my line are strong, there are even surnames of wider family used as middle names in my tree but have I pinned too much on such a flimsy leap of faith? I've gotten to know some really nice people so all is not lost if I am wrong - but I'd really like to be right and count them as family.

I'd really appreciate assistance in either proving or disproving the link.

Regards
bethsam[/b]

[bethsam]

Hi everyone


Since putting up the post yesterday I've re-trawled the sites discovered that scotlandspeople has a James Hope and Agnes Neilson having a son John on 22 February 1823, Leadhills - this is very close to the information on the John Hope I have in my tree born on 23 February 1827, Leadhills, according to his marriage register records (29 June 1855).

I have requested the birth record which will hopefully arrive soon but can anyone tell me what I am likely to receive information-wise with such an old record? Is it likely answer any questions?

Regards
bethsam

[Russell]

Hi Bethsam

Any birth record pre-1855 was an entry in the church Register of births.
It might tell you very little so don't get your hopes up!

" To James Hope and his spouse of this parish - a son John on February 22nd. "

This would be the least entry but often additional useful information is included such as, the spouse's maiden name, that it was a first/second....son/daughter. That the witnesses were Joe Bloggs of ..........parish and Fred Jones of..........parish.
Its a lottery how much information was recorded. OPR entries we found in Caithness helped us find some other relatives (by marriage) using the witness names as clues.
The info that both parents were 'of this parish' narrowed down our search and eliminated several other possible links to earlier generations too.

I hope your record has everything possible on it and that the Session Clerk or minister was conscientious.

Russell

[bethsam]

Hi Russell

Thanks for replying. I guess it's another lottery, problem is, I never get the hoped for results there either! I'll bide my time until the certificate comes and see what there is. I've just got so many brick walls in my tree with unrecorded parents, births and marriages that I find it difficult to be sure I am who I say I am

The saving grace is that I have a census record, 1851, showing a Robert Neilson visiting with Agnes/Margaret and her family and he ties up with family from back in the Leadhills but I would like something more solid to go on.

Thanks again
Bethsam

[JustJean]

Hello Bethsam

This one is a bit of conundrum isn't it? I'm not seeing any way that you can prove this for sure one way or the other. I do think you have found the right OPR birth for your John though. But my fingers are crossed that certificate might say something you don't already know. It looks like John might have been their first child or at least one of their first few. It's always possible that the Thomas and Margaret you are trying to turn into Agnes' parents (by turning Agnes into a Margaret) (Did I get that right?) had a Agnes in addition to the Margaret that is listed and just that Agnes didn't get into the OPR for some reason. Agnes certainly comes up as Agnes on the OPR birth of John (that you are waiting on), she is Agnes in 1851, she is Agnes when John gets married in 1855, and she is Agnes when she dies. Unfortunately she is only Mrs. Hope in 1841 It really is a huge stretch to think she was born as Margaret.

The best clue is the visitor named Robert Neilson age 21 in 1851. Are you thinking he is the son of Thomas Neilson and Mary Paterson?? And is this Thomas Neilson one of the children of Thomas and Margaret? But because no relationship to Agnes is shown on the census then it really doesn't prove a thing does it ! Not to mention that Thomas and Margaret seem to be listed as having the same surname before marriage

Definitely not an easy one........

Best wishes
Jean

[bethsam]

Hi Jean

Thanks for your interest. Yes, a conundrum but we all love a challenge, don't we? It is such a pity that there is no record of James Hope and Agnes Neilson getting married and coupled with no record of James' death along with no mother's surname on Agnes' death records - I seem to be stumped at every turn. My imagination has run out on how else I can get information absolutely linking this particular family to the one in Leadhills. Only John seems to have been registered in the parish records though I know of 4 children and suspect there may be more as there is a gap between Charles 1829 and Margaret 1836. Thomas, Charles and Margaret all state they were born in Sanquhar, Dumfries in census records.

The people I know for sure are related to me in this family do use married surnames of Thomas and Margaret's other daughters for their children/grandchildren's middle names, Moffat being one. This was the married name of Mary Neilson who married James Moffat. Though more common are Neilson and Hope as middle names as the generations get further away.

Still keeping my fingers crossed for a revelation in John's birth certificate but will accept more brick walls in a family full of them! I should build a house!

Thanks again Jean
Regards
Bethsam