I can’t find the Parents of my great-grandfather.....

dockerty · Post by **dockerty** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:13 pm

Can any one please help?
I can’t find the Parents of my great-grandfather.
The first two children were girls, Mary, b.1865 and Elizabeth b.1867; both born in Northumberland, England (ref 1871 Census).
Then there was James. The following from SP
Old Parochial Register, Birth of James Thomson 1869, registered 19th June. In the District of Bathgate in the County of Linlithgow,
Born 2nd June at 3.30 AM. At Starlow, in the parish of Bathgate, to John and Isabella Thomson. Registrar was David Rankine.
From the marriage cert of John age 22 and Isabella 21, (married in Northumberland) I know that Johns father was James Thomson.
The 1891 census said John was born in Lanarkshire, Scotland.
The rest of the family were born in Northumberland.
They are: Robert Fryar, William John, Margaret, Marion (Minnie), Thomas Allan, Georgina Frances,
Why would the Parents go to Scotland for John to be born?
There are quite a few John Thomson with father James born in Lanarkshire, how do I know which one is mine to request a birth cert’ to identify John‘s mother?
I’ve already spent a packet on SP.
gdock

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:44 pm

Hi dockerty and Welcome!

I've got a few questions....

What was John's occupation?
Did his MC from England state an occupation for his father, James?
Any idea if John had any siblings....ie did the the kids have aunties or uncles or cousins on the Thomson side??
What were Isabella's parents names?

Perhaps John and Isabella were in Scotland due to employment.....or perhaps they didn't go there for James to be born but James was born unexpectedly while they were there

Any further clues you can think up would be most helpful!

Best wishes
Jean

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:06 pm

Dwelling: 13 Blue Quarries Low Rd
Census Place: Gateshead, Durham, England
Source: FHL Film 1342215 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 5041 Folio 12 Page 18
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
John THOMSON M 39 M Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Miner (Un)
Isabella THOMSON M 35 F Springwell, Durham, England
Rel: Wife
James THOMSON U 11 M Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Robert THOMSON U 8 M Seghill, Northumberland, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Scolar
William THOMSON U 4 M Seghill, Northumberland, England
Rel: Son
Margaret THOMSON 2 F Chirton, Northumberland, England
Rel: Daur

ok.....so I've answered one of the questions.....John was a miner. Not difficult then to imagine the family living in Bathgate for a short while as that area was also known for mining. I'm wondering if perhaps John may have been born in Scotland but might be found in Northumberland on the 1851 census or even the 1861 census? It looks like he might have been born about 1842 and if that is true we're out of luck looking for him with family in 1841. Was Isabella's father a miner too by any chance??

Still thinking........

Best wishes
Jean

dockerty · Post by **dockerty** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:40 pm

Hi Jean
Thank you for responding so promtly.
Yes as you found John was a COAL MINER as was his father JAMES
His wife Isabella FRYAR; Married19th Dec 1863,
Her father ROBERT FRYAR born Northumberland was also a COAL MINER
Her mother ELIZABETH MCKEY born Gurnsey, Channel Islands, U K

As for John's siblings I can't find any trace on the 1851 census in England
or Lanarkshire; as for the 1861:----I think I have just had a breakthough-----I have just managed to get a copy of the 1861 census and the family here seem to match John and father James. It reads:
James thompson, Head, 56, Colliery furnaceman, born Scotland
Mary wife, 48 ''
Wm Jno son, 26 Coal miner ''
Thomas son, 22 '' ''
JOHN '' 19 '' ''
Margaret dau 11 ''
James son 8 ''
Andrew '' 6 ''
Thomas Robertson Lodger, 27 '' ''
Noble Thompson '' 22 '' ''

It seems to fit a Bothwell family JAMES THOMSON and MARY ROBERTSON having the same children.
What do you think Jean? And where do I go from here?
Many thanks Jean.
Gordon D

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:52 pm

Hi Gordon

Well done =D> I say

! Based on family names....ages....and occupations......If that isn't your family I'll eat my hat

! One huge word of caution.....I peeked on the IGI at this family and it seems that all the results are submissions....ie they are not taken from the actual OPR records but instead are submitted by members of the LDS church. The information may be accurate but then again it may simply be best estimate based on family genealogies etc. A perfect example of this is the dates given for the birth of John. You'll note he's listed 3 times...twice with the date of 3 Aug 1841 and once with the date of 3 Aug 1838...

There is also a couple of marriages of a John Thomson to a Mary Robertson but the one in Neilston and later in Barony looks to be a good choice for yours. It would be listed twice as the banns would have been called in each of the home parishes. It is slightly possible you may obtain more detail from ordering a copy of the OPR MC (or getting a transcription of it by some kind soul visiting NRH) but it's a rare thing. Don't want to get your hopes up there. Now armed with names and ages you should be able to locate the family on the 1851 census in Scotland. The lodgers with them in 1861 might be good clues to other family members since their surnames fit right in! I'd look for Noble Thomson in 1851 and 1841 as there can't be too many and see if he might be a nephew or cousin.

Good luck!!

Best wishes
Jean

dockerty · Post by **dockerty** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:26 pm

Hi Jean
Thanks again. I had noticed those discrepencies but I will follw your lead and see where it takes me.
That's my first brick wall breached. I'll post my other later after I've run with this for a while.

Regards

Gordon

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:31 am

Hi Gordon

Had to wait to get home from work to check the BIVRI disks. You got lucky! 3 of the children's births are recorded there.

This means at least these births were actually recorded in the OPR and just didn't make the cut into the IGI as extracted records. In theory if you ran a search on SP in the OPR births you should find at least these 3 there......but that won't tell you anymore information than you have right here so don't rush out to spend the credits there! Perhaps when the OPR digitized images are available online you would like to spend the credits to print off and view the original entries then.

THOMSON, John Christening
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 3 Aug 1841 Birthplace: , Bothwell, Lanark, Scotland
Recorded in: Bothwell, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Father: James THOMSON
Mother: Mary ROBERTSON
Source: FHL Film 1042965 Dates: 1803 - 1855

THOMSON, Margaret Christening
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 25 Jan 1850 Birthplace: , Bothwell, Lanark, Scotland
Recorded in: Bothwell, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Father: James THOMSON
Mother: Mary ROBERTSON
Source: FHL Film 1042965 Dates: 1803 - 1855

THOMSON, James Christening
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 16 May 1852 Birthplace: , Bothwell, Lanark, Scotland
Recorded in: Bothwell, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Father: James THOMSON
Mother: Mary ROBERTSON
Source: FHL Film 1042965 Dates: 1803 - 1855

With seeing it confirmed that they were clearly in Bothwell on either side of 1851 I'll be very surprised if you haven't already found the census image with this family on it.

Best wishes
Jean

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:31 am

Hi Gordon and Jean,
This looks like James & Mary with their family in 1851.
When i see a large age gap between children i often suspect a 2nd marriage.
But maybe wee Margaret was just the late baby.
--
1851 cens 652 (633) Ed 8 p 35 (Old Monkland)
James THOMSON, 46, b Stonehouse
Mary, 37, b Barony, LKS
William, 16, b Barony, LKS
Marion, 14, b Barony, LKS
Thomas, 12, b Barony, LKS
John, 10, b Barony, LKS
Margaret, 1, b Old Monkland
--
And there is a son named Noble in this family - all as born Ireland though.
He's not in Lanarkshire 1861.

1851 cens 647 (658) Ed 8 pp 29-30 (Hamilton)
Thomas THOMSON, 53, b Ireland
Martha. 54, b Ireland
Thomas, 24, b Ireland
Ann, 16, b Ireland
Anthony, 14, b Ireland
Noble, 11, b Ireland
Martha, 7, b Ireland
-
1861 cens 647 Ed 8 p 5 (Hamilton)
Thomas THOMSON, 60, b Ireland
Martha, 60, b Ireland
Ann, 24, b Ireland
Anthony, 22, b Ireland
Martha, 15, b Ireland
--
Jack

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:32 am

Ooops...Hi Jack....fancy bumping into you here

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:40 am

Hi Jean,
Aye, but for how long....
I've a very temporary broadband connection via a neighbour's line.
All above board i hasten to add.

Well that's what the engineer said....
Jack