John Bryce's Maw 'n Paw - Whit D'Youz Think?.....

Richard Bryce · Post by **Richard Bryce** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:25 pm

Hi., I’m a wee bit of a novice at this genealogy lark and am stuck trying to fix the identity of the parents of my grgrgrfather JOHN BRYCE. I have strong candidates in Thomas Bryce and Elizabeth (Betty?) CHALMERS and possibilities in James Bryce and Elizabeth ALLAN.

From census John says he was born in Dalry abt 1819. He was certainly working as a blacksmith in Dalry in 1851, and was married there in 1846 to Dalry girl Elizabeth ROY. He later moved to Glangarnock/Kilbirnie and then to Eskdaleside in N. Yorks. I’m guessing from this that he was a smithy in the mining industry.

Now, according to SP OPR a John Bryce was baptised Jan 1819 in Dalry, parents THOMAS Bryce and Elizabeth CHALMERS/CHAMBERS. (IGI has it as Chambers). A Betty Chalmers was xned in Dalry 20 Oct 1799. Her father is William. I can’t find a marriage or census record for Thomas and Elizabeth, but a 20 year-old John Bryce is in the household of 70 year-old William and Janet Chalmers in the 1841 Dalry census, grandparents perhaps, but he’s given as a handloom weaver.

My initial thoughts were that this must be my John and that the census recorder just made a clerical error with the occupation in 1841. It was a large household of weavers and there is no John Bryce, hlw born abt 1819 in the 1851 census.

But then I wondered what the likelihood was of a lad from a family of weavers becoming a blacksmith, so I looked for other candidates and found a 20 year-old John Bryce in the 1841 census, an OCC, living with ‘Smithie’ Walter LINDSAY in Paisley. John isn’t given an occupation, but I’d guess he is an Apprentice blacksmith.

Next I looked for other possible parents and found a JAMES Bryce and Elizabeth ALLAN/ALLEN married April 1812, with banns read in Beith and Dalry. An Elizabeth Allan was xned 16 February 1794 in Dalry. Father John Allan. I can’t find a census record for these either.

I wondered too about naming patterns. My John and Elizabeth had 6 children that I can identify. In age order: Janet, Elizabeth, James, Margaret, Agnes and John. Elizabeth’s parents are James and Elizabeth. Her maternal grandmother is Jean (often transposable with Janet, I believe), so James and Elizabeth Allan as John’s parents makes sense. Mind you, the age gap between daughter Elizabeth and son James leaves room for a missing son Thomas.

Back to Elizabeth Chalmers/Chambers. There is only one marriage in the SP OPR and IGI for Dalry and that is to Peter Brown in 1822. They and three children are in the 1841 Dalry census.

Any observations and suggestions gratefully received.

Rich (from Corby, Northants)

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:45 pm

Hi Rich

Sorry but no rabbits from the hat for you

It seems no matter which way you lean you will not have any sure proof that you have the correct set of parents.

Several observations.....you list the children of your John Bryce and Elizabeth Roy in order of birth Janet, Elizabeth, James, Margaret, Agnes, John. I assume these are gained from census records. The IGI gives you the following:

1. ANN BRYCE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 25 MAR 1855 Kilbirnie, Ayr, Scotland

2. AGNES BRYCE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 10 AUG 1858 Kilbirnie, Ayr, Scotland

3. JOHN BRYCE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 10 MAY 1860 Kilbirnie, Ayr, Scotland

Not that it helps in any way but you've not listed Ann. With an 1855 birth it should confirm the number of children they've had to date so you might be able to determine if you have them all.

A possible scenario (and this is purely conjecture so do not quote it!!!!) John Bryce was born to Thomas Bryce and Elizabeth Chalmers and christened in Jan 1819. The BIVRI disks give him a birth date in Dec 1818. Perhaps Thomas and Elizabeth were not married or perhaps Thomas died very young. Perhaps the Elizabeth Chalmers who married Peter Brown in 1822 is John's mother. So perhaps John was living with his grandparents in 1841 instead of with his mother stepfather and half brothers. Unfortunately your John marries before 1855 so no parents are known. If you haven't obtained a transcript of the OPR marriage for John and Elizabeth it couldn't hurt. You at least know that he is yours and it just might say something about parents....doubtful but until you look........! I've looked for the death of this Elizabeth Chalmers Brown but she seems to disappear between the 1851 and 1861 census from Dalry and none appear logical on a death search on SP after 1855. Soooo...perhaps she died before then. I was hoping John Bryce might have turned up as an informant but that seems to be a lost cause.

Another very remote possibility to explain the change of occupation for John is that he may have been enumerated twice. This does happen on occasion but in your case there is once again no way I can see to prove this might be the case.

I can only assume that John died in England so that you have no parents names from that end. He seems to have dodged every opportunity to leave an easy trail for you.

Sorry

Best wishes
Jean

Richard Bryce · Post by **Richard Bryce** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:53 am

Hi Jean, thx for the input. You're right, it is Ann. My bad editing. I'd originally mentioned, but deleted as information overload, that the names Ann, Janet and Agness are also names of Elizabeth Roy's sisters, as is Margaret, Jean and Mary, and she had brothers James and John amongst others, so all her children could have been named from her siblings as much as from parental naming pattern. Ann, Agness and John, born in Kilbirnie, all died there in 1861. Janet died in Kilbirnie too, whilst daughter Elizabeth appears to have died in Dalry. Finding that out the same day I discovered that two of their four grandchildren also died young in England left me feeling quite depressed over May bank holiday weekend. Son James, thank goodness, made it south of the border and into adulthood.

The scenario you paint is the conclusion I came to too, that father Thomas had died young (or that they were unwed) and that John's mother then married Peter Brown. I'm more inclined to the illegitimate birth and to John then being raised by grandparents. That would explain the lack of a marriage record for Elizabeth and Thomas.

The fact that John married a Dalry girl and settled in Dalry also inclines me to the John with the Chalmers family in 1841 being my John, rather than the one living in Paisley with the Lindsays. Why apprentice in Paisley and then move back to Dalry? But then I am still left with the niggling doubt as to how come a lad from a weaver family and censused as a weaver himself becomes a smithie 10 years later. If an illegitimate birth that could explain why no Thomas in his children, but then you'd expect a William after his grandfather.

The IGI transcript of the OPR John and Elizabeth marriage gives Elizabeth's father but is silent on John's. I assumed that I'd learn nothing more from a copy via SP.

I wonder if there are any apprentice/freemen records in Dalry, or employee/payroll lists for the local mines that might help.

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:50 am

Hi again Rich

I been thinking.

.....and I wonder if you might want to pursue some OPR research. No need to order any extracts but you could always take the cheap route and order in the microfilm at your nearest LDS library and view the records for yourself. I'm talking about the Marriage of your John and Elizabeth just to confirm that yes he lists no parents. I see what you mean about the IGI listing her dad but none for him but I still wouldn't rest until I had viewed the original entry. Of course sometime soon? before the year ends? SP is striving to get the digitized images of the OPR records available online. That of course would be the easiest method as you don't have to leave home..... but unfortunately you do have to wait

Now let's take the OPR records one step further and why not order the film that contains the Marriage of Elizabeth Chalmers to Peter Brown....and see just what it says...and if it might mention if she was a widow.....and then just for the heck of it.....order the film that would contain the birth record of John Bryce to Thomas and Elizabeth and see what that one might say. From googling around I've noticed that Genuki says:

"The information contained in the OPRs can vary immensely. For the birth of a child you will usually be given the names of both parents (including maiden name of mother) and often an address and names of witnesses (often relatives). A marriage will sometimes name relatives of the couple."

Sooooo....nothing to lose and possibly some witness names to gain who might be siblings who might be traceable.....

I wish I had more experience with the OPRs but unfortunately I've only ever obtained transcripts of two marriages before....and neither one of them stated parents names or witnesses

....so I'm not the most optimistic person to ask.

Then I've even thought......what about Kirk Session Records? Not sure if they exist for Dalry but if John was illegitimate there just might be some mention of it there. These records would have to be consulted at the Archives I think and again....nothing I have experience with....(but hope to when I visit Edinburgh in September as I have a wee mystery of my own I'm stuck on

)

I really couldn't say about the existance of apprentice records. I did wonder though that Peter Brown was a miner as was at least two of the sons of Peter and Elizabeth Chalmers. If she was John's mother then maybe he changed occupations to working around the mines because of their connection to it. Ok....I'm really stretching now.....which just made me think.....where was John living in 1851 compared to where Elizabeth and her two sons were????.....should go check that......

Best wishes
Jean

Richard Bryce · Post by **Richard Bryce** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:04 pm

Hi Jean. Good thoughts. Thanks. I've a trip planned to my local LDS centre in Northampton and will see if I can do a thorough look up on the OPRs there. The witness route is certainly worth pursuing.

I'll have to see if I find an old map of Dalry to plot the residences of the the various players in the 1841 and 1851 census.

rich

Richard Bryce · Post by **Richard Bryce** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:12 pm

I'm still troubled about a 20 year-old weaver taking on a long apprenticeship to become a blacksmith. I'm inclined to think the census recorder got it wrong, if indeed this is my John.

rich