Is it time to give up the chase? .....

KBABAK · Post by **KBABAK** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:27 pm

Hi,

This is my first post to Talking Scots, but I have been seeing great things about this forum, so I decided to make it my court of last resort!

I have been searching for the parentage of my ggg grandfather John BARLAS b. approx. 1810 for over 10 years and I am wondering if the learned advice is to just accept the fact that birth and therefore parentage will never be found.

John BARLAS was a poor ag. labourer whos name seems to have been mentioned statistically, all of 5 times in his life. He married Isabella MCDOUGALL in 1837 in INCHTURE. They are found on the 1841 census in ERROL with children Janet, John and David.

From the Burial books for Grey Friars cemetary found in the A.K. Bell library in Perthshire (yes, I even crossed the ocean to have a look) I found the following notations- " 1848 26 June, John Barlas, Son of John Barlas, Labourer, _________ Bridgend, 9 years, Scarlet fever, June 24th (d) June 26th (interred), Small Plain Coffin" and "1848 February 07, Robert Barlas, Son of John Barlas, Labourer, Perth, Bridgend, 1 year, "Nervous", February 5th (d), February 7th (interred), Small Plain Coffin"

On the 1851 census for ERROL "Bell" Barlas is a widow living with son William 5 and son James 1 year old born in DRON. Therefore, if son James was born in 1850, John must have died sometime between late 1849 and early 1851. I have searched high and low for a grave, but have been unsuccessful. Strangely, baby James died in 1853 and is buried in ERROL cemetary in a plot owned by his mother Isabella. Where did this poor widow get the money to buy a plot in 1853 but didn't have the money to purchase it when her husband died??

The last mention of John BARLAS is when wife Isabel dies. Isabella's Obituary- Perth Courier 1889 Sep 24 p2 col 7

"At Errol on 17th inst. Isobel McDougall, widow of John Barlas, Tarsappie, Perthshire." Does Tarsappie refer to John's birth place or does it refer to his last place of residence?

There are almost always other BARLAS families in the areas they are living. These other families have children with similar names (but so does half of Scotland have John's, Williams, Davids and James) but I can trace each of these families back 3 more generations. I just can't confirm John's birth into any of these families.

I have combed the OPR's, spent a fortune on Scotlands People and proudly own the certificates for almost every BARLAS(S) in Scotland and visited the Tay Valley centre as well as the Bell library. The naming patterns don't work. So I come back to the question- Is there something I have missed or is it time to accept the fact that poor John lived and died in basic anonymity and give up the chase?

Thank you for your patience.

Karen Kushnir (nee Barlass)

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Post by **emanday** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:42 pm

All I can say to you Karen is that several ancestors of mine were nowhere to be found for four years. Going over my "still missing" files lately I decided to have another look and two of them had suddenly appeared!

Either these records were added recently or have been corrected and/or re-indexed or, possibly, I am simply getting more "devious" about how and where I look. There is also the fact that the folks on this forum are VERY helpful and have added to my little bag of tricks with their advice both to me and to other posters. =D>

It's well worth reading other peoples questions as the answers can often point you in a better direction.

Don't give up...

carmentea32 · Post by **carmentea32** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:49 pm

Hi Karen and welcome!
If it's any consolation, I searched high and low for my gggrandfather's death for several years. I couldn't cross the ocean, but I hired an expert and he couldn't find the death either. Well, I finally found him in the USA, where he married somebody else (left his wife in Scotland), had 7 kids and lived to the ripe old age of 92!
So, don't give up, the people on here are great, somebody is sure to help you out.

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:51 pm

Hi Karen
...and a warm welcome to Talking Scot

You mention:

They are found on the 1841 census in ERROL with children Janet, John and David.

What age is given for your John in 1841 and is his birth noted as "in county" or "not in county" ?

My take on Tarsappie in the obit. would be that it was where Isabella was living at the time of her death, but I suppose could also be read as the place John was living, and where Isabella may have remained after his death. Unless he stayed put all his life, (which is quite possible) I don't think I'd read it as the place of his birth.

Best wishes
Lesley

KBABAK · Post by **KBABAK** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:30 pm

Wow! I have never seen a list with such quick and encouraging replies!

Having lived with John off and on the last 10 years, I have become quite fond of him and feel that he deserves more from me!

Lesley: John BARLAS was listed as 25 on the 1841 census, born in PERTHSHIRE. ( Isabella - "OPR Longforgan # 0102759 -April 1811
"John Macdougal, Plowman in Dron, and his wife Janet Lindsay had a child born on the the 20th and baptized on the 21st and named Isobel") was also listed as 25.

I fell that "Bell" Barlas lived in The COWGATE in Errol all her remaining life. (Confirmed address from 1851 until 1881. Bel died in 1889). My logic was - I didn't think that TARSAPPIE could be construed as being the same as The COWAGATE area and so it must be a referrence to John. Can Tarsappie and The Cowgate be considered as the same?

Karen

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:22 pm

Hi Karen
So that makes your John anywhere between the ages of 25-29 so dob anywhere between 1811 - 1815-ish.

Now more questions!

You may have looked at all of the following (just checking!

)
In teh '41 what was the placename - were they actually in the town of Errol, or elsewhere within the parish?
Have you checked Monumental Inscriptions for the area?
That plot that baby James is buried in - are there lair records? I wonder if the plot holds anyone else?

Tarsappie seems to be a small village so, as you say, it would not appear at face value to be the same as the Cowgate in Errol.

Best wishes
Lesley

KBABAK · Post by **KBABAK** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:56 pm

Hi Lesley,

You are right about John's possible birth years. I had forgotten that long ago I had chivalrously given him a year on Isabella with the intention of confirming it and never did!

In 1841, John and Isabella were living in ROSS, Errol. It is confirmed by son David's birth documentation in the parish records as being born "at Ross".

I have checked all of the burial registers at the Perth Library including Grey Friars where the boys are buried just about a year before as well as Crieff, Forgandenny, Fowis Wester, Coupar Angus, Methven Church and Comrie Church . I have inquired about all the "published" monumental inscriptions for the Perthshire area.

At the Perthshire Register office I found a card for Errol Cemetary that read-" Grave: 185/186- Belonging to: The Widow Barlas 1853 Oct 23/26 James Barlas son of W.B. - Errol.

James was alone in the grave until Sept 20, 1889 - Name: Widow Barlas 76 Widow Errol" joined him. Strangely enough, 5 days later on 25 Sept a Robert McFarlane 65______ Megginch Estate was also buried in the plot.
I have not come across the McFarlane name anywhere else in my research so I have never been able to connect the events.

I really do appreciate your taking the time with me. Thank you

Karen

Davie · Post by **Davie** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:44 pm

Greetin's Karen
The Barlass name is of interest to me.
I have a researched a connection between the McNaughtons, McDougals, McFarlanes and Whytlocks.
Was wondering if you have come across any McNaughton or Whitlock in your efforts.
I will have to check my records when I get home on Sunday, but I am sure I have a death record on file from Glasgow in the 1940's on an Isabella Barlass.
Davie

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:27 pm

Hi Karen
Well, you've certainly done your homework! I think you have looked at most of the obvious sources. The only other place I had a look at was NAS - the National Archives of Scotland,
http://www.nas.gov.uk/
in their online catalogue
http://www.dswebhosting.info/NAS/

But nothing obvious is turning up. Though, as I have learned, not everything is catalogued... If as you say, he was a labourer, it seems less likely perhaps that there might have been property to be passed on after his death, though not impossible.

But just to throw the cat among the pigeons, whilst I was looking at the IGI I found these, which you are no doubt familiar with, all extracts, all children of John Barlas and either Bell or Isabella MacDougall:

JANET BARLAS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 22 NOV 1837 Errol, Perth, Scotland

JANET BARLAS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 22 NOV 1839 Errol, Perth, Scotland

DAVID BARLAS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 07 JAN 1840 Errol, Perth, Scotland

DAVID BARLAS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 07 JAN 1842 Errol, Perth, Scotland

WILLIAM BARLAS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 24 OCT 1845
Male Christening: 31 OCT 1845 Newtyle, Angus, Scotland

No obvious sign of sons John or Robert on IGI or Scotlands People.
Now thats an interesting twist - is there a possibility your John might have died in Newtyle area (after fathering the James you know of in the 1851 of course

) and Bella decided to return to Errol with the children, in time for 1851 so it looks like they have never been away from the area? Might this explain why he does not appear to be buried with the rest of the family? Its just a few parishes away (about 15-20 miles or so away) . It may be a false ray of hope, but maybe worth considering, ....that is, if you haven't already.

I somehow think you may have covered this one, though! And I note they were back to bury Robert in 1848 by the looks of things. Could John have been working away from home at the time?

Hmm, its probably grasping at straws time - maybe someone else might be able to pitch in with a new angle?

Best wishes
Lesley

KBABAK · Post by **KBABAK** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:57 am

Hi Davie,

During my search for the illusive parents of John, I have compiled my very own data base of unconnected Barlass'

I have notation of a Duncan McFARLANE and a Christian McDONALD having a child named ANN BARLAS McFARLANE in March 1862 in Perthshire. . It is a long time before your 1940 referrence though.

One of the strongest possibilities for the parentage of my John is a Gilbert BARLISS son of William BARLAS and Elizabeth WALKER. Gilbert married a Cecelia WHYTOCK and produced a son William in 1806 and daughter Janet in 1808. I know that there is a gap in the OPR's for METHVEN (where they were living at the time) beginning about 1810. Could this be why my John is missing?

I have no mentions of Mcnaughton except for a couple of Barlas' that lived next to or near to on ca ensus.

Sorry I couldn't be more help

Karen

TalkingScot.com

Is it time to give up the chase? .....

Is it time to give up the chase? .....

Thanks for the encouragement!

John BARLAS

McFarlanes et all