Margaret Wotherspoon in Old Monkland.....

[bobj-kirk]

Hello Everyone,

I just noticed in the last posting here that Jack seems to have access to an 1851 census for Old Monkland. I have ordered in some films, and an 1851 Index on CD, but they won't be here for weeks. So, thought I'd give it a try and see if anyone can help out.

My GGG Grandmother is Margaret Wotherspoon Who married John Smellie on January 16, 1808 at Old Monkland. My problem is I can't find out who her parents are, or even when and where she was born. John Smellie died in 1856 a widower, so she probably died before 1855, at least I haven't found her on the statutory registry on SP. One other confusing item is that John died in the Hamilton Poor's House even though he was married and brought up his family in Old Monkland. He was born in Hamilton. I don't know when he moved back to Hamilton, or if Margaret moved there or died first. I am hoping that the 1851 census will shed some light on it and also on Margaret. If not, maybe the 1841 census. Or???

Any help will be appreciated.
-Bob

[Jack]

Hi Bob,

What age was John on his 1856 DC? Occupation?

Do you have any details of John & Margaret's children & gr-children? Names, ages?

Thanks - Jack
--
ps - the 1841 Old Monkland isn't yet online at FreeCen, but you can see at what stage it's at.

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~census/
--

[Andy]

Hi Bob,

Old Monklands (Coatbridge/Airdrie) is only 5 or six miles from Hamilton so it wasn't such a big move. There were bridges across the Clyde at Bothwell and Hamilton from at least the mid 1600s so it would have been an easy jaunt.

[bobj-kirk]

Jack,

I guess I should have included more details from the start. Anway here's what you asked for.

Here is the info on John Smellie.
Born - born July 23, 1775 at Hamilton, Lanark.
Occupation - Cotton weaver.
Married - Margaret Wotherspoon on January 16, 1808 at Old Monkland, Lanark.
Died - April 18, 1856 at Hamilton, Lanark.

Here is the info on John/Margaret's children:
William - born March 31, 1811 at Old Monkland, Lanark.
Margaret - born August 8, 1813 at Old Monkland, Lanark; married Robert Shaw; died May 12, 1903 at Airdrie, Lanark.
Jane - born April 14, 1816 at Old Monkland, Lanark.
John - born January 17, 1819 at Old Monkland; married Janet Allan after banns on November 6, 1841; died August 25, 1880 at Langloan, Lanark.
Janet - born July 8, 1821 at Old Monkland, Lanark.
Maryanne Brown - born December 7, 1823 at Old Monkland, Lanark; married James Brown; died July 4, 1868 at South Medrox, Landward New Monkland, Lanark.
Mary - born September 30, 1827 at Old Monkland, Lanark.

The only grandchildren I have are the children of John Smellie and Janet Allen:
John - born June 27, 1842, baptised July 3, 1842 at Old Monkland Church, Lanark.
James - born May 14, 1844, baptised June 23, 1844 at Old Monkland Church, Lanark.
David - born February 14, 1847, baptised March 14, 1847 at Old Monkland Church, Lanark.
Robert - born February 20, 1850, baptised March 7, 1850 at Old Monkland Church, Lanark.
Jane - born November 23, 1852, baptised December 12, 1852 at Old Monkland Church, Lanark.
Maggie - born ca 1856, married Robert Tennent.

-Bob

[Jack]

Hi Bob,

The reason i'd asked for John's children etc was i'd thought he'd been born about 1785, and there were more than one for around that age - and with the possibility he was with a child or gr-child of a different name.
There are over 430 "Smellies" in Lanarkshire 1851. A couple of Williams below - just in case you can see a connection as the eldest son.

Glad to see Margaret in 1851, but sadly as you say she seems to have died pre 1855. But at least you've got her birthplace.
--
1851 cens 647 (657) Ed 8 p 38 (Hamilton)
31 Church Street.
John SMELLIE, head, marr, 75, hand loom weaver, b Hamilton, LKS
Margaret SMELLIE, wife, 72, pirn winder, b Cambusnethan, LKS
--
1851 cens 652 (634) Ed 12 p 12 (Old Monkland)
Langloan Village.
John SMELLIE, head, marr, 32, labourer, b Old Monkland
Janet SMELLIE, wife, 29, ---------- b Bothwell, LKS
John SMELLIE, son, 8, scholar, b Old Monkland
David SMELLIE, son, 3, -------- b Old Monkland
Robt. SMELLIE, son, 1, -------- b Old Monkland
Robt. MUIR, visitor, 16, taylor, b Carnwath, LKS
----------
1851 cens 652 (634) Ed 11 pp 6-7 (Old Monkland)
Brown's Square, Langloan Village.
William SMELLIE, head, widower, 40, labourer, b Old Monkland
James SMELLIE, son, 15, labourer, b Old Monkland
Hugh SMELLIE, son, 13, labourer, b Larkhall
Sarah LINTON, servant, u/m 18, ------- b Desart? Co. Derry
George CALDER, lodger, u/m 23, labourer, b Lanark, LKS
--
1851 cens 652 (637) Ed 30 p 10 (Old Monkland)
McAra's Land, Calderbank.
Wm. SMELLIE, head, marr, 40, carter, b Old Monkland
Jane SMELLIE, wife, 36, --------- b Old Monkland
Thos. SMELLIE, son, 9, --------- b Old Monkland
Wm. SMELLIE, son, 7, ---------- b Old Monkland
Jean SMELLIE, daur, 5, -------- b Old Monkland
Wm. SMITH, 21, storekeeper, b Aberdeen
--
Jack
--
Edited to correct John's year of birth to abt 1785 - not 1885.

[bobj-kirk]

Jack,

Thank-you very much for this lookup. You seem to have the whole family there. As you say, Margaret is there in Hamilton with her husband, and I now have her place of birth and approximate year of birth. That's great!

Another good thing about the listing is that it confirms to me that the John Smellie who died in Hamilton was the same person as the one who lived in Langloan and was married to Margaret. There was just the tiniest doubt because John's 1856 death certificate doesn't list his wife's name.

There is one discrepancy, Janet Allan Smellie, 29, wife to the second John Smellie you list has a birthplace of Bothwell, whereas in the 1881 census she is listed as being born in Shotts. I will try the 1871 census and see what it has for her.

I'm not sure what to do next. My goal of course it to find Margaret's parents.

I wonder if John and Margaret are both living in the Hamilton Poorhouse at this census. The Poorhouse documentation I have seen is about the Hamilton Combination Poorhouse, but they didn't start building it until 1864, and it was "on the west side of Bothwell Road" which doesn't seem to match the address of 31 Church Street in the census. Is there any way you can tell from the census if that is a normal address or a Poorhouse? The reason I am asking is that I have heard there are often pretty good records for Poorhouse inmates even though I have never personally seen any.

BTW, I assume that at least John ended up in the Poorhouse because the wages for hand weavers had dropped through the floor, at least according to the Parish Statistical Accounts. I guess this resulted from the widescale introduction of power looms. Presumably the same thing happened to a "pirn winder" like Margaret.

Well, I guess I will poke around some more and see what I can find out about Wotherspoons in Cambusnethan and/or Hamilton Poorhouse. If you or anybody else has any further comments or suggestions, I would love to hear them.

Thanks again.
-Bob

[nelmit]

I'm not sure what to do next. My goal of course it to find Margaret's parents.

I wonder if John and Margaret are both living in the Hamilton Poorhouse at this census. The Poorhouse documentation I have seen is about the Hamilton Combination Poorhouse, but they didn't start building it until 1864, and it was "on the west side of Bothwell Road" which doesn't seem to match the address of 31 Church Street in the census. Is there any way you can tell from the census if that is a normal address or a Poorhouse? The reason I am asking is that I have heard there are often pretty good records for Poorhouse inmates even though I have never personally seen any.

BTW, I assume that at least John ended up in the Poorhouse because the wages for hand weavers had dropped through the floor, at least according to the Parish Statistical Accounts. I guess this resulted from the widescale introduction of power looms. Presumably the same thing happened to a "pirn winder" like Margaret.

Well, I guess I will poke around some more and see what I can find out about Wotherspoons in Cambusnethan and/or Hamilton Poorhouse. If you or anybody else has any further comments or suggestions, I would love to hear them.

Thanks again.
-Bob

Hello Bob,

I went to the Mitchell Library today and had a look for an application to the poorhouse from either Margaret or John but I'm afraid there was nothing about either of them.

Regards,
Annette M

[DavidWW]

....snipped .................
There is one discrepancy, Janet Allan Smellie, 29, wife to the second John Smellie you list has a birthplace of Bothwell, whereas in the 1881 census she is listed as being born in Shotts. I will try the 1871 census and see what it has for her.

Since these are adjoining parishes I wouldn't be too concerned about that apparent discrepancy.

....snipped.................

BTW, I assume that at least John ended up in the Poorhouse because the wages for hand weavers had dropped through the floor, at least according to the Parish Statistical Accounts. I guess this resulted from the widescale introduction of power looms. Presumably the same thing happened to a "pirn winder" like Margaret.

A rather neat example of the value of researching such contextual information.

Davie

[Jack]

Hi Bob,

Some food for thought. I may be throwing a spanner into the works with these - but luckily any checking falls into the searchable Statutory Records.
---------
Were William SMELLIE & Marrion BROWN the parents on John's 1856 DC? and so leading to this birth record? If yes, then the 75 yr John with Margaret at 31 Church St in 1851 does look like he's their son.
Does the 1856 DC give his usual place of residence as Langloan? Who was the informant?

John SMELLIE - Birth:13 Jul 1775
Christening: 23 Jul 1775 Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Father William SMELLIE
Mother Marrion BROWN
-----------------------------------
The Janet & Mary in these next two censuses fit in agewise with two of John SMELLIE & Margaret WOTHERSPOON's daurs - but coincidences on names i do know happen all the time.
The 2 gr-sons are a bit of a mystery just now - can't see them in LKS 1861.

JANET SMELLIE - Christening: 08 JUL 1821 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
MARY SMELLIE - Christening: 30 SEP 1827 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
--
1851 cens 651 (641) Ed 4 p 2 (New Monkland)
Gaindykehead.
Margaret SMELLIE, head, widow, 62, ----------- b Old Monkland
Janet SMELLIE, daur, u/m 29, handloom weaver, cotton, b Old Monkland
Mary SMELLIE, daur, u/m 23, handloom weaver, cotton, b Old Monkland
John? S. SPITTAL, gr-son, 10, --------- b Old Monkland
William S. SMYTHE, gr-son, 8, -------- b Old Monkland
&
1861 cens 651-2 Ed 4 p 12 (New Monkland)
Gaindykehead.
Margt. SMELLIE, head, widow, 72, ----------- b Old Monkland
Janet SMELLIE, daur, u/m 39, dress maker, b Old Monkland
Mary SMELLIE, daur, u/m 33, dress maker, b Old Monkland
--
A look for the DCs of mother Margaret and daurs Janet & Mary will be needed to see if they can be eliminated. This Margaret was born about 1788 so would've been old enough to marry in 1808, and she was born in Old Monklands too.
If these daurs DO have their mother as Margaret WOTHERSPOON, then your tiniest doubt was correct - but if not, then i'm completely wrong - which i'd rather be to dispel any possible errors.

Sorry to give you this problem, but because there is a possibilty that your GGG-GM Margaret WOTHERSPOON survived John then it has to be checked out so's you know for sure whether she did or not.
---------------
Thankfully the next one is ok - and Janet now has Shotts as her birthplace.

1861 cens 652-2 Ed 2 p 18 (Old Monkland)
Buchanan St, Langloan.
John SMELLIE, head, marr, 42, forester, b Old Monkland
Janet SMELLIE, wife, 39, --------- b Shotts
John SMELLIE, son, u/m 18, blacksmith, b Old Monkland
Robert SMELLIE, son, 11, scholar, b Old Monkland
Jane SMELLIE, daur, 8, scholar, b Old Monkland
Margaret SMELLIE, daur, 5, --- b Old Monkland
--
Jack

[bobj-kirk]

Jack,

I don't mind the spanner if it brings the truth to light. I am glad of the chance to review this family with some knowledgeable people because it gave me quite a bit of trouble. It also looks like you may have brought more interesting developments to light.

Before I answer, I will give you the history of how I arrived here:
John Smellie's 1856 DC listed William Smellie and Margaret (not Marion) Brown as his parents. In addition, it listed as the informant his son Alexander Smellie. The problem with Alexander is he was not a known son and I couldn't connect him directly as a son of John Smellie.

Because of the mother's name, and the unknown son, I wasn't sure this DC was my John Smellie. The thing that swayed me was finding that John Smellie/Margaret Wotherspoon had a daughter Maryanne Brown Smellie born Dec 7, 1823. And then on her death certificate, I found her name listed as Marion Brown Brown (she married James Brown). I felt sure that Marion (Maryanne) Brown was named for her grandmother and was most likely born soon after the grandmother's death.

Another problem in the mix was that I was able to find an Alexander Smellie 1873 DC in Hamilton listing his father as John Smellie, Weaver, and his mother as Margaret Ravelton. Alexander was born ca 1806 before John married Margaret Wotherspoon in 1808. I wondered for a time whether John had been married to Margaret Ravelton in Hamilton before marrying Margaret Wotherspoon in Old Monkland. However, this was resolved when I found another son John born to John Smellie/Margaret Revelton in 1815. When I found that, I decided this Alexander and John were not my relations.

Now to answer your questions:
As I said, the parents on John's 1856 DC were William Smellie and Margaret Brown. His residence on the 1856 DC was simply "Poor's house Hamilton" with no additional usual residence.

With respect to the Smellie censuses in Gaindykehead, they can't be the same family because Margaret Smellie is listed as a widow in 1851, at the same time that John and Margaret are listed on the 1851 census in Hamilton. However, there are enough similarities that I took your suggestion and did some digging.

I found an 1869 DC for Margaret Smellie; Widow of John Smellie, weaver; parents William Wotherspoon and Margaret Miller; died in South Medrox, New Monkland.

I can't find Janet, at least not with a cursory search.

I found a 1912 DC for Mary Smellie in Cadder, parents John Smellie, Farmer and Margaret Wotherspoon. I then was able to find her 1866 MC in Falkirk, groom Thomas Wishart, her age 39, her usual residence New Monkland, her parents John Smellie, Labourer and Margaret Wotherspoon.

One more item of interest, Marion Brown Smellie died in South Medrox, New Monklands, just like Margaret listed above.

A simple and attractive explanation is that the daughter named Marion Brown Smellie is just a coincidence and does not connect the family to the John on the 1856 DC. In that case, John in Hamilton just married Margaret Ravelton in Hamilton and had a son Alexander and died there. And John and Mary in the Monklands are a separate family. Very neat and tidy.

An alternative explanation is that there were two John Smellie/Margaret Wotherspoon familes, one in Old Monkland and one in new Monkland. Actually, its worse than that because the children in the new monkland census were born in old Monkland, so presumably both families lived in Old Monkland at some point. Is this scenario more or less likely than the naming coincidence?

I guess another alternative explanation could be that John was from Hamilton but he and Margaret split up sometime before 1851 and rather than listing herself as separated, Margaret listed herself as a widow. In order for this to work, John would have had to go back to Hamilton and taken up with or married another Margaret (but not necessarily Wotherspoon).

Curiouser and curiouser...

I think the thing to do now is to try to find the family or families in an 1841 Census. Supposing there are two families, they would look something like this:
Family 1
Location: probably Langloan, Old Monkland.
Head: John age 65.
Wife: Margaret age 62.
Children: probably John age 22, possibly Marion age 17. William age 30 will be married and probably in a separate residence.

Family 2
Location: could be in Old or New Monklank.
Head: possibly John age unknown, or maybe Margaret age 52, widow.
Wife: possibly Margaret age 52.
Children: probably Janet age 19, Mary age 13 and possibly Marion age 17.

If it was one family, the people would be a mixture of the two, but the crucial item would be Margaret's age. Presumably it would be 52.

I don't have ready access to the 1841 Census. I hope someone else can provide this information. My head is spinning and I'm dying to know more.

-Bob