looking for deaths.....

[natae]

On the 1881 all 4 of these people are still alive so I'm looking for deaths after this date William & Sarah Wilson nee Johnston born Ireland died Scotland last known address 657 Garscube rd Glasgow Wiiliam age 66 Sarah aged 64 also John Kirk born Ireland & wife Isabella Henrie or Hendric born Scotland both alive on the 1881 census last know address 9 Doncaster st Barony Lanark Scotland John aged 50 Isabella aged 50 any help very much appreciated
Lee

[DavidWW]

On the 1881 all 4 of these people are still alive so I'm looking for deaths after this date William & Sarah Wilson nee Johnston born Ireland died Scotland last known address 657 Garscube rd Glasgow Wiiliam age 66 Sarah aged 64 also John Kirk born Ireland & wife Isabella Henrie or Hendric born Scotland both alive on the 1881 census last know address 9 Doncaster st Barony Lanark Scotland John aged 50 Isabella aged 50 any help very much appreciated
Lee

Lee

A textbook example!

Two surnames, one quite common, one very common, so it’s going to be a long and expensive task to find the death register entries. Right? Wrong!

First, let’s have a look at the 1881 census entries:

Dwelling: 657 Garscube Rd
Census Place: Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203664 GRO Ref Volume 644-9 EnumDist 101 Page 9
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
William WILSON M 66 M Ireland
Rel: Head
Occ: Labourer Iron
Sarah WILSON M 64 F Ireland
Rel: Wife
Sarah HIND U 18 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Gr Dau
Occ: Weaver Worsted
Thomas HIND 5 M Ayr, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: G Son

And:

Dwelling: 9 Doncaster Street
Census Place: Barony, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203663 GRO Ref Volume 644-9 EnumDist 85 Page 9
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
John KIRK M 50 M Ireland
Rel: Head
Occ: Foundry Patternmaker
Isabella KIRK M 50 F Kirkintilloch, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Mary KIRK 20 F Kirkintilloch, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Cotton Weaver
Arthur KIRK U 19 M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Foundry Patternmaker
Robert KIRK U 17 M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Foundry Patternmaker
John KIRK U 15 M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Message Boy Stationers Shop
Lousia [sic] I. KIRK 11 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
James F. KIRK 9 M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar

First, a possible shortcut. Assume that the families stayed in the same area. First it’s necessary to establish the enumeration/registration district. This is given above, in numeric form as 644-9. A quick look at the GROS website will translate that to Kelvin. Then go to scotlandspeople.gov.uk and look for deaths from 1881 onwards in Kelvin only, setting the bottom end of the age range searched appropriately, and selecting an appropriate upper end for the years searched.

Results? Both families didn’t move outside Kelvin. There’s only 1 match for John KIRK, with 2 for Isabella, but only one of these is an age match. Note that I didn’t use the year of birth option, as you are then relying on the age at death being accurately reported. Once it’s possible to specify this further on the new site, - up to ±10, - steps of 1 to ±5 then a step of 5, then I’ll use this option more frequently.

There are 12 William WILSONs in Kelvin, but only 1 match on age, and 5 Sarah’s, and again only 1 match on age.

Cost?, - a paltry 24 credits.


But what if they had moved and the new address was in a different registration district, - that might be only a few hundred yards away. There can also be complications arising from the re-organisation of RDs, - see http://www.talkingscot.com/rds/rds-intro.htm for details. For Glasgow, G&WSFHS also have maps of the RDs over the years. It could also have been the case that some of the information supplied by the informant was wrong, particularly age, so let’s assume that was the case.

Take the KIRK family first. Forget the parents for the moment, as, in this case, there is a reasonably unusual name in the household, - Louisa (not Lousia!!), and have a look for her in the 1891 census, before searching for the death of the parents, as with surnames such as these it’s a good idea to narrow the time period to be searched. I normally widen the age range by 1 or 2 years.

In this case, for Louisa, age range 10 to 12, there’s only one match in 1891 that leads directly to the family, with John and Isabella still alive. Trying the same for 1901 produces no result for Louisa so she has either married, died, or emigrated. A marriage search gives no result, but a death search does, as she died in 1893 from pneumonia, her father shown as deceased, so that that narrows down the period in which John died to between 1891 and 1893. Searching for a John KIRK age range 55 to 65 in Glasgow City produces just 2 results, one of which, in 1892, is an exact age match and is the correct record.

For Isabella, it would be possible to search from 1893 onwards, or see if she can be located first in the 1901 census. Either way the record is very easy to find in Glasgow City, but I didn’t search on the surname KIRK, but tried the maiden name HENRY, and that worked, with only 13 hits in Glasgow City for an Isabella HENRY aged 50+ from 1892, the correct record being in 1908.

A search for Isabella in the 1901 census would have produced an appropriate entry at 46 Dick Street in the ecclesiastical parish of Barony, the quoad sacra parish of Maryhill, for the widow Isabella, born Kirkintilloch, with daughters Mary and Jessie, and sons John and James, all born in Glasgow. But such a search wouldn’t have led to that great a reduction in the number of hits for the death of an Isabella HENRY from 1891 onwards.

For the WILSON family I first tried search for a Thomas HIND aged 14 to 16, but didn’t locate the WILSONs. There was an age match, but not in a WILSON household, although the Ayrshire location made me think for a bit.

So, instead, I searched in the 1891 census for a William WILSON aged 74 to 78 in Glasgow City. Found one with a Sarah, but the kids names, and the place of birth was wrong, so took a flyer and searched for the death of a Sarah WILSON aged 63 to 75 WILSON between 1881 and 1891 – in hindsight I maybe should have searched for the less common given name Sarah in the 1891 census rather than William but, as our American cousins very correctly say “hindsight is 20:20”. This produced two age matches, the second of which I looked at, - it could equally well have been the first, - in 1885, - produced the death register entry for Sarah, “Married to William WILSON”, so he was alive in 1885.

Following the same idea, I now looked for a Glasgow City death of a William WILSON age range 70 to 77 in the period 1885 to 1891, and, for this search, only one match on age, in 1888, which is the correct record, - and there’s some fascinating information on the register entry waiting for Lee, as the informant, granddaughter Sarah HYND, had the full information on all of the wives of her grandfather !!

OK, I took a flyer after the lack of success in the 1891 census. It could easily have been the case that for whatever reason I wasn’t able to find the census entry, but I was playing the percentages on the basis of ages of 66 and 64 as reported in 1881.

Total cost in terms of credits?, - an eminently reasonable 54 credits. OK, so I’m an expert and know how to search efficiently and how best to play the percentages, but the techniques that I used are not exactly rocket science, and a little bit of background research and some thought, - even if that means buying and reading the books by Kathleen Cory and Sherry Irvine, - accompanied maybe by a request or two on this DG for guidance as to the next step, would mean that most researchers would achieve the same result for less than 100 credits ……….

Had the search in the years between the 1881 and 1891 censuses for the death records not produced results, I’d have moved on to the 1901 census. If the families had moved outside the Glasgow City area I’d have looked in Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire and Dunbartonshire, and, at some point, concluded that it wasn’t cost effective to continue spending credits on scotlandspeople.gov.uk and, instead, continued the search at New Register House in Edinburgh, where, for an eminently reasonable fee for a day’s access, as many records as you can look at in the time can be consulted, and that, believe me, is now a lot, as the register entries are digitised and can be consulted on the computer screen at your search place, as opposed to the previous system where you had to fill in an order slip and go and take out the microfiche, maximum 3 at a time, take these back to your search place, load and look at the images, and so on with the next batch of 3 records as appropriate. (Prior to that self service system, up to three original registers were delivered to your search place, and this could take up to ½ an hour at peak times. Prior to that, - before my time, - you were escorted by an NRH “servitor” up to the storage areas for the registers, and closely supervised while you consulted the entry of interest, and only that entry!!)

Further research possibilities for these trees ?

For the WILSONs, nothing much in Scotland as both William and Sarah were born in Ireland.

For the KIRKs there are reasonable possibilities for further info from the statutory death registers, as both John and Isabella are shown in 1881 as born in Kirkintilloch, in Dunbartonshire. Unfortunately, the LDS site doesn’t produce any hits for children of the parents of John and Isabella. Neither are there any obvious linked KIRK or HENRY death records in Kirkintilloch or Dunbartonshire, but that’s premature, in the sense that a look at the 1841 and 1851 censuses would be a more appropriate next step.

Davie

[natae]

Many thanks Davie you had my head spinning I don't think I could have worked out what you did I'm only new to this been trying to do my family tree by myself my mum & grandparents have passed away & any info with them my nan was the gr grandaughter of William & Sarah their son James born app 1852 moved to Aus sometime after 1881 the only reason I have got as far as I have with my tree is because of fantastic people like you can't wait to get William's death certificate & that's the next Question HOW ? can you tell me if I can apply online (that's if hubby gives in with the credit card online bit ) I can't get over what you worked out here in Aus the NSW bdm is free to search so it is a bit easier & I have a few cert's now luckly for me no boo boo's yet I hope I can get as good as you when it comes to over seas as I have a few in Eng & Ireland I need to get luckly I have some of the ref no's for them
Thankyou very much from
grgrgr granddaughter of William Sarah John & Isabella
Lee

[DavidWW]

Many thanks Davie you had my head spinning I don't think I could have worked out what you did I'm only new to this been trying to do my family tree by myself my mum & grandparents have passed away & any info with them my nan was the gr grandaughter of William & Sarah their son James born app 1852 moved to Aus sometime after 1881 the only reason I have got as far as I have with my tree is because of fantastic people like you can't wait to get William's death certificate & that's the next Question HOW ? can you tell me if I can apply online (that's if hubby gives in with the credit card online bit ) I can't get over what you worked out here in Aus the NSW bdm is free to search so it is a bit easier & I have a few cert's now luckly for me no boo boo's yet I hope I can get as good as you when it comes to over seas as I have a few in Eng & Ireland I need to get luckly I have some of the ref no's for them
Thankyou very much from
grgrgr granddaughter of William Sarah John & Isabella
Lee

Lee

I'm afraid that, on-line, there's no alternative to using www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk , so you'll have to have a credit card, as that's the only way to pay.

Davie

[natae]

Thanks Davie will work on the hubby [-o<
Lee

[lynne kathrine]

i have family from scotland, some from glasgow.
how intresting there is a doncaster street in lanaks and a family name i try to trace is melville now in doncaster whan i lived there accross a very busy rd not ten mins from where i once lived is a melville street.
is this i good omen?? i hope so......
just thought ide share that with you all, there are so many other coinsidences also xx