Marriage Certificates.....

Helen Murray · Post by **Helen Murray** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:09 pm

Hi I hope some one can please help me I have just recieved quite a bit on my family tree from one of my cousins someone from this forum kindley went to a lot of effort to get the information for her but its getting really confusing now as I understand it The Mary Lappin we have been trying to look for may have been called McCann on her marriage Certificate but on my Great Grandfather John Shields marriage cert his parents are Francis Shields and Mary Lappin we cant find either a Birth or Death cert for him and I have searched for a few years now for this but what I did find was his sister Mary Jane Shields marriage certificate now this is where it does get intresting she married a James McCann in 1891 and her parents names on the marriage cert are Francis Shields Shoemaker and Mary Lappin I have went back over the information that the lady kindly sent to my other relative and then went and had a look at the census she mentioned for Mary in 1861 and I find that her parents had a lodger at that time called Janet Lappin also on my great great grandfather francis Shields Death Certificate that also has his widow as Mary Lappin and it was his daughter Mary Jane who registered the Death at the time I am trying to make sence of all this as marys name goes from McCann to McConn to Lappin and John doesnt seem to excist until his marraige in 1897 to Christina Glover then he dissappears again as there is no death I would really appreciate any advise on where to look next I have searched scotlands people certificate and the census records as well but nothing

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:29 am

Hi Helen

I guess I am the kindly lady who pulled all that mess into the light of day. You're not the only one scratching their head either! I haven't spent the hours you have to track down all the children of Francis and Mary and see what their marriage records and death records might state for parents names. It is odd that Lappin and McCann are used interchangeably but I wondered if Mary might have been born before her mother married Mr McCann?? Just a suggestion but this might account for her being known by more than one surname. Since she was born in the 1840's I wonder if you've looked for her family on the 1851 census yet? Does that hold any clues? With all this occuring before Statutory registration it limits the records that can be accessed which is a real pity.

Several other things I wonder about. Your Gr Grandfather John and his apparent lack of a DC. What do you know about him? Where were their children born? Where did they grow up? Has any family lived outside of Scotland so far that you've traced? Are there any family stories at all that could give a clue about him?? He may have died in Scotland but lived to be older than the online records permit searches in. (not likely but not impossible!!)

As for the Janet Lappin lodger in 1861...don't forget that relationships are stated towards the head of household....so if she wasn't his daughter then she might have been called a lodger even if she were a step daughter or a niece or a sister in law. These are sometimes stated very loosely so all aspects need to be examined with an open mind before eliminating anything as not possible. It might be wise to try and track down this individual and see if you can locate her marriage and who she stated as parents. She is enumerated as married but we have no certainty whether her married surname is Lappin or she is using a maiden one. Sometimes it's not what you find...but what you eliminate that narrows up the field.

Best wishes
Jean

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:38 am

Well.....now for some more breaking news. I got to thinking about that whole McCann household on the 1861 census and if you study it closely you'll note that there is a wee George and John O'Brien that don't seem to belong to anyone obvious. However due to the ages it looked to me like they might be children of Janet Lappin...and since she was enumerated as married I went looking for a MC. But nope....maybe she married before 1855. Hmmmmmm....ok so I just looked for the birth of John and guess what??? His mother's mn is Lappin! Well well.....so it looks like these are her children!!! So next I went looking for the Death of this Jane/Janet Lappin/O'Bri*n and guess what?????????? She's found!!

1898 O'BRIEN JANE LAPPIN WHITE F 54 BRIDGETON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK

.....but her parents were John Lappin and Elizabeth Busby!!!!! Oh dear...the waters are muddy again!! Who are these people??? Certainly the Busby surname came into play on one of Mary's certs as a mother but I'm still not convinced that Jane/Janet and Mary are full sisters.

Look at it this way....you've got a very large family out there if we can only sort them all into the proper groupings

!

Best wishes
Jean

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:06 am

And here is what appears to be Mary McCann with her parents in 1851...unfortuntaely they are all lodgers in a large household so again there may be relationships there that are not obvious!! No sign of Janet but I did find one somewhere else nearby in Glasgow age 18, born Glasgow, and working as a domestic....and enumerated as Jane Lappin.

1851 MCCANN MARY F 5 GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/01 088/01 011

Best wishes
Jean

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:24 am

Another critical piece is found.....the death of

1869 BUSBY MARY LAPPING F 60 CLYDE GLASGOW CITY/LANARK

parents are John Busby farmer and Elizabeth Busby no ms.

And the above Mary was only noted as being widow of Patrick Lappin a shoemaker!!

...and no mention of Patrick McCann.....hmmmmm

So now I'm off to look for this son of hers named James Lappin.....as I still think this is the same lady who was married to Patrick/Peter McCann and is the mother of Mary. Altho....I've had an interesting thought!! What if Mary and Peter never married???? I mean she had been married to a Patrick Lappin we know that so what if that is a reason poor Mary jumped around using every which surname under the sun????.........Now if we could only account for what happend to Patrick/Peter McCann.......

That was a quick search....Youll find the marriage of James her son in 1863 Clyde district which confirms the same parent details as above.

Ok...can't give up yet....look in 1841Census and it's pretty obvious that there is Patrick Lappin and Mary with family. He is indeed a shoemaker as is Mary.

Still many unanswered questions but I think we're getting a little better picture....hope so!

Best wishes
Jean

Helen Murray · Post by **Helen Murray** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:57 pm

Hi Jean
Thanks for all your help what I know about John is he married my Great Grandmother Christina Glover in 1897 at Buckhaven they had Five Children that we know of one being my Grandfather Francis Shields they were all born in Buckhaven with the exception of Christina Glover Shields who was born in Glasgow 13/3/1902 as I understand John was also a merchant seaman he is also down as a miner on one birth certificate but as christinas family were fishermen and merchant seamen he may have changed his trade I have asked my mother what she knows about my fathers family and she remembers something about John drowning at sea but she may have mixed that up with Christinas brother david glover who did drown just out side Kirkcaldy Harbour in 1906 what i have found very common in the family that the first and second born sons and daughters were called after their grandparents and I wonder if John was his middle name as my fathers two elder brothers were called after their grandfathers one being David and the other William John

Helen

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:17 pm

Hi Helen

At least with a list of your grandfather Francis siblings you can arrive at a narrower time frame that John could have died in. For example....just from what you've posted above I know that he was alive in 1902 when Christina was born and from finding her MC I know that he was deceased by 1922. Have you followed up with marriage searches on the others yet to see if any marriages occured earlier than 1922? If so was he still living then? Unfortunately as you have pointed out there does not seem to be a DC for him in the SP indexes. I'm not sure what the procedure would have been if he might have drowned and the body never recovered. Is there a waiting period to declare someone legally dead? Would that have affected when a death could be registered? Not sure.....need an expert to perhaps answer some of those!!

You also point out the presence of a naming pattern in the family so it is also possible that John was a middle name for him. Alot of possibilities... but still sadly nothing that I see at the moment that will positively identify him in the Death indexes.

Best wishes
Jean

Post by **emanday** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:23 pm

Didn't there used to be a 7 year waiting period between missing and declaration of death?