Death cert, cause of death unknown, body found.

Looking for Scottish Ancestors

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eclipseuk
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: east anglia

Death cert, cause of death unknown, body found.

Post by eclipseuk » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:49 pm

Hello,
I am new to this form, so seeking advice, I have an Elisabeth White nee Mcguire, states found 7 20 am 20/8/1899, glasgow, cause if death unknown, in the margin of the death cert, it says see vol 6 p 66 7th nov 1899.
my question is can i order this information from scotlands people, and is it likely to have any further information? As have in the Past ordered early Banns and Marrages, which sadly didnt contain any further information to what i already knew. But i guess thats how it goes sometimes, :lol:
She died young 29 and was a power loom weaver, which is a whole different area im looking into too!!! :D any help much appreciated kind regards Lynda
PAGE perth scot, GALBRAITH Bo,ness, MILNE Angus, THOMSON Bo'ness, MCgure, Glasgow, WHITE, Glasgow

emanday
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Location: Born in Glasgow: now in Bristol

Post by emanday » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:56 pm

Hi Lynda,

A warm welcome to TS :D

The notation in the margin of the DC refers to a "Register of Corrected Entry". As I understand it, if you order the DC (as opposed to downloading the image) you should also get what that RCE says, but don't be surprised if it doesn't have much more information. Then again, it could be quite informative.

None of my rellies have had this on there entry, but I know that if I had got one, I would have ordered the proper certificate, just in case.
[b]Mary[/b]
A cat leaves pawprints on your heart
McDonald or MacDonald (some couldn't make up their mind!), Bonner, Crichton, McKillop, Campbell, Cameron, Gitrig (+other spellings), Clark, Sloan, Stewart, McCutcheon, Ireland (the surname)

DavidWW
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Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:47 pm

Post by DavidWW » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:05 pm

Hi eclipseuk aka Lynda

Welcome to TalkingScot.

Such a death, where there was no regular medical attendant prior to the death, especially when no cause of death is given, had to be referred to the Procurator Fiscal (think US District Attorney) so that the circumstances could be investigated, the cause of death determined, and any appropriate action taken, e.g. the initiation of a criminal prosecution.

The information then returned by the PF to the registrar would confirm the cause of death, this being entered in the Register of Corrected Entries (RCE), hence the marginal entry on this death register entry, - "See Regr. of Cor. Ent. Vol. 6 p66 - 7th November 1899".

In addition, any further action being taken by the PF would be referred to in the RCE entry.

This is a distinctly unusual death register entry in that the deceased is only 27 years old, cause of death shown as "Unknown", and the informant being her brother William, i.e. where was her husband John WHITE when all this was going on?

Digitised images of the RCE entries connected to BMD images are on the verge of coming on-line at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk , but whether "on the verge" means 1 week, 1 month, or longer I hesitate to say :!:

David

joette
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Location: Clydebank

Post by joette » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:52 pm

I have had a few RCE on my lines.Most have showed the "bare bones" eg one said "Found dead by his Mother at such & such a time last seen alive two hours before"No cause given but the implication is that he committed suicide.
I have one William Fraser McKimmie(my Great-Grandfather William Trail's elder brother who was found drowned in a pond aged two).The RCE gave no further info on his death but it did contain where he was buried & even the lair no.I read this at NRH for myself.It also had the words "satisfied that he drowned" so even then they thought of the possibility of foul play.
I also have one which gives the address of the household he was taken too after an accident which to me means a lot in that he was probably unconcious but it was comforting to know he didn't die alone."Killed by the jib of a crane falling on him.Which is pretty horrific.
Interestingly I have four blood relatives that have died through railway accidents out of five that I know who worked them.I have warned my younger brother who is presently employed by Scotrail!!!
Researching:SCOTT,Taylor,Young,VEITCH LINLEY,MIDLOTHIAN
WADDELL,ROSS,TORRANCE,GOVAN/DALMUIR/Clackmanannshire
CARR/LEITCH-Scotland,Ireland(County Donegal)
LINLEY/VEITCH-SASK.Canada
ALSO BROWN,MCKIMMIE,MCDOWALL,FRASER.
Greer/Grier,Jenkins/Jankins

Tom-W
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Post by Tom-W » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:56 pm

Hi Lynda

There is a report on this in the Scotsman. I have sent it to you by PM to let you digest the circumstances first as this was an assault/murder.

Regards
Tom

eclipseuk
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: east anglia

Thank you all for your replys

Post by eclipseuk » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:01 pm

Now i have to decide if to order and extract or wait until scotlands people get them online some time!!!!?
Thanks David yes i have often wondered where john was in all this, dont know much about him except he was a Hammerman, i believe after her death he went with his 2 year old daughter, (my grandmother) to live with his mother Catherine, ( who was also found dead probable cause diabetes.) she brought up my grandmother. I still reseaching them. but must admit it is all a bit strange!!!?
PAGE perth scot, GALBRAITH Bo,ness, MILNE Angus, THOMSON Bo'ness, MCgure, Glasgow, WHITE, Glasgow

eclipseuk
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: east anglia

just goes to show, how people on here can find missing clue

Post by eclipseuk » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:38 pm

Dear all, well i have just received some informaton, about my relatives death. :shock: I must admit it is a shock. and also i now have more questions!!!! My father my grandmother was brought up by her grandmother. so maybe no one knew what happened?

Thank you Tom, for finding the following info :shock:

From the Scotsman 21 August 1899
Alleged Fatal Wife Assault In Glasgow - A serious affair resulting in the death of a woman occurred in the Southside of Glasgow on Saturday evening. Shortly after ten o'clock yesterday forenoon , Detective Thomas Kilgour reported at the Southern Police Office, Glasgow, the death of Elizabeth M'Guire or White, twenty-seven years of age , the wife of John White, a hammerman, which took place in their house at 218 Wellington Street, Southside , between six o'clock on Saturday evening and half-past seven yesterday morning. On Saturday evening about six o'clock, it is alleged, the deceased and her husband were quarrelling in the house, and that he struck her with his fists, knocked her down and kicked her. Between eleven and twelve o'clock deceased's mother, Cecilia M'Gee or M'Guire, and Thomas M'Guire, both residing at the same place, found White standing drunk at the end of the close, and took him to his house, which consists of a single room, and is entered from a back court. At that time they saw Mrs White lying on her face on the floor, and, thinking she was asleep, they put a shawl. over her and came away. About half-past seven o'clock yesterday morning Mrs M'Guire, whoso house is divided from White's by a thin partition, heard White knocking on the wall, and she got up and went to see what he wanted. He told her there was something wrong with his wife. Mrs M'Guire looked at her daughter lying on the floor, and saw she was just in the same position as when she left her on the previous evening. Mrs M'Guire informed the police of the affair, and White was taken into custody pending further inquiries. The dead body was examined about half-past eight yesterday morning by Dr David Chalmers, 26 Abbotsford Place, Glasgow , who found several cuts on the head and severe bruises on the forehead, arms, and body. He was of opinion that death must have taken place eight or nine hours before he saw the body. The place in which the tragedy occurred is known to the police as a very rough quarter. Crowds of people gathered in South Wellington Street yesterday and discussed the affair. White, the neighbours allege, was in the habit of taking drink every pay day, and on this occasions he is said to have become very violent. He has a family of three girls, the eldest of whom is seven years of age.
PAGE perth scot, GALBRAITH Bo,ness, MILNE Angus, THOMSON Bo'ness, MCgure, Glasgow, WHITE, Glasgow

DavidWW
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Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:47 pm

Re: Thank you all for your replys

Post by DavidWW » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:44 pm

eclipseuk wrote:Now i have to decide if to order and extract or wait until scotlands people get them online some time!!!!?
Thanks David yes i have often wondered where john was in all this, dont know much about him except he was a Hammerman, i believe after her death he went with his 2 year old daughter, (my grandmother) to live with his mother Catherine, ( who was also found dead probable cause diabetes.) she brought up my grandmother. I still researching them. but must admit it is all a bit strange!!!?
But see Tom's post re The Scotsman report involving an assault/murder being involved ...............

Be aware that the best source of further information will be the newspapers, as the records of the High Court of Justiciary will only show the name of the panel (accused), the name of the victim, the date and place of the trial along with, possibly, the names of the members of the jury, and the verdict.

It is quite possible, however, that the records held at the West Register House archive of National Archives of Scotland, will contain the precognitions (statements of evidence) and associated material connected with the case ........

David

DavidWW
Posts: 5057
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:47 pm

Re: Thank you all for your replys

Post by DavidWW » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:45 pm

DavidWW wrote:
eclipseuk wrote:Now i have to decide if to order and extract or wait until scotlands people get them online some time!!!!?
Thanks David yes i have often wondered where john was in all this, dont know much about him except he was a Hammerman, i believe after her death he went with his 2 year old daughter, (my grandmother) to live with his mother Catherine, ( who was also found dead probable cause diabetes.) she brought up my grandmother. I still researching them. but must admit it is all a bit strange!!!?
But see Tom's post re The Scotsman report involving an assault/murder being involved ...............

Be aware that the best source of further information will be the newspapers, as the records of the High Court of Justiciary will only show the name of the panel (accused), the name of the victim, the date and place of the trial along with, possibly, the names of the members of the jury, and the verdict.

It is quite possible, however, that the records held at the West Register House archive of National Archives of Scotland, will contain the precognitions (statements of evidence) and associated material connected with the case ........

David
I was too slow :!: :!:


There should also be later newspaper reports of the subsequent trial.

David

joette
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Posts: 1974
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:13 pm
Location: Clydebank

Post by joette » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:20 pm

What a sad end to a life.Sounds as if he was found not guilty if he was around to bring up your Grandma.What about the other two children did they go with him too?
The 1901 Census would be agood place to have a look as to where they all were.
Poor wee lassies though as they were probably around witnessing the whole thing.
Researching:SCOTT,Taylor,Young,VEITCH LINLEY,MIDLOTHIAN
WADDELL,ROSS,TORRANCE,GOVAN/DALMUIR/Clackmanannshire
CARR/LEITCH-Scotland,Ireland(County Donegal)
LINLEY/VEITCH-SASK.Canada
ALSO BROWN,MCKIMMIE,MCDOWALL,FRASER.
Greer/Grier,Jenkins/Jankins