I'm hoping someone out there knows about these folk as they were all born way before the 1841 census and there doesn't seem to be much else available online (at least not while FamilySearch is playing up):
My 3xgreat grandmother is Janet ADAMSON, born according to the censuses in Earlsferry/Elie, Fife. I think she was christened at Kilconquhar in December 1807. If that is her, her parents are David ADAMSON and Wilhelmina (Minnie) BLACK. They were married at Kilconquhar in 1803 but had several children, it seems, between 1800 and 1821, either in Fife or North Leith. I cannot find any information about either person - accurate date (they are both 60ish in 1841) or place of birth, parents, brothers & sisters etc. The only lead is a 90 year old James ADAMSON living with the couple and their son in Elie in 1841. The census does not say whether James is David's father.
Any help at all would be greatly appreciated!
Richard
Adamson/Black of Fife
Moderator: Global Moderators
-
RChristopher
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:20 pm
- Location: Lancashire, UK
-
LesleyB
- Posts: 8184
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
- Location: Scotland
Hi Richard
You mention the IGI but I'm not sure if you have looked for the OPR entries for the marriage and births of the children. Sometimes, if you are lucky, the OPRs can give little clues - occuations, places of abode, that sort of thing, which can all help put a wee bit more flesh on the bones (so to speak!) You can download individual pages of the OPRs from the Scotlands People site on a pay per view basis...
However, if you could get hold of the microfilms of the OPRs that might be bettter than downloading pages from Scotland People in this instance; you should be able to order OPR microfilms at your local LDS centre for a small fee. The reason I suggest this approach is because both the the Elie & Kilconquhar OPRs contain death entries which you cannot search for online:
Lesley
You mention the IGI but I'm not sure if you have looked for the OPR entries for the marriage and births of the children. Sometimes, if you are lucky, the OPRs can give little clues - occuations, places of abode, that sort of thing, which can all help put a wee bit more flesh on the bones (so to speak!) You can download individual pages of the OPRs from the Scotlands People site on a pay per view basis...
However, if you could get hold of the microfilms of the OPRs that might be bettter than downloading pages from Scotland People in this instance; you should be able to order OPR microfilms at your local LDS centre for a small fee. The reason I suggest this approach is because both the the Elie & Kilconquhar OPRs contain death entries which you cannot search for online:
- 427. ELIE
427/1 B 1639-1775 M 1639-1775 D 1736-60
427/2 B 1773-1819 M 1774-1819 D 1783-1808
427/3 B 1820-54 M 1820-54 D 1822-54
436. KILCONQUHAR
436/1 B 1637-1709 M 1637-1709 D -
436/2 B 1719-93 M 1719-70 D 1737-87
436/3 B 1781-1819# M 1770-11819 D 1787-1819#
436/4 B 1820-54 M 1820-54 D 1820-54
# Contains indexes to:
B 1781-1788 (Surname followed by Christian name of child).
B 1793-1809 (As above, but only letter R).
D 1787-1812 (Surname followed by Christian name).
6921 LEITH (NORTH)
6921/1A B 1615-56 M - D -
6921/1B B 1657-95 M - D -
6921/2 B 1694-1726 M - D -
6921/3 B 1728-1791 M - D -
6921/4 B 1791-1819* M - D -
6921/5 B - M 1605-1706 D -
6921/6 B - M 1783-1819 D -
6921/7 B - M - D 1754-1819
6921/8 B 1820-30* M - D -
6921/9 B 1831-44# Contains index M - D -
6921/10 B 1845-54 " " M - D -
6921/11 B - M 1820-47 Contains index D -
6921/12 B - M 1847-54 " " D -
6921/13 B - M 1821-31 D -
6921/14 B - M 1832-54 D -
6921/15 B - M - D 1819-42
6921/16 B - M - D 1843-54
RNE
* Contains index to B 1816-30 and also 2 birth entries (1818, 1819) at end of
volume
# Contains additional entries for 1809-1848 at end of volume
Lesley
-
RChristopher
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:20 pm
- Location: Lancashire, UK
Hi Lesley
For some reason I hadn't thought to look at the OPRs on Scotland's People as well as the IGIs. I have now though, and it is a mixed bag of results.
I have confirmed that the family lived in Earlsferry, which makes it more certain that the Janet is the right one. However, I can't find the marriage of David and Wilhelmina (a David Adamson did marry in Dalgety in 1799 but no spouse is listed), there are several James Adamsons in Fife of the right age but none from Kilconquhar or Elie, and I can't find any record at all of Wilhelmina being born/baptized. The main problem seems to be that they couldn't decide what her name was or how to spell it. Of course, she might not be Scottish, but there are other Blacks in that area. I can't even pin down David's birth as he seems not to have been born in Kilconquhar/Elie either.
I have seen, though, that there are currently Adamson's bakeries in Elie and Pittenweem. What are the chances of them being related?!
Richard
For some reason I hadn't thought to look at the OPRs on Scotland's People as well as the IGIs. I have now though, and it is a mixed bag of results.
I have confirmed that the family lived in Earlsferry, which makes it more certain that the Janet is the right one. However, I can't find the marriage of David and Wilhelmina (a David Adamson did marry in Dalgety in 1799 but no spouse is listed), there are several James Adamsons in Fife of the right age but none from Kilconquhar or Elie, and I can't find any record at all of Wilhelmina being born/baptized. The main problem seems to be that they couldn't decide what her name was or how to spell it. Of course, she might not be Scottish, but there are other Blacks in that area. I can't even pin down David's birth as he seems not to have been born in Kilconquhar/Elie either.
I have seen, though, that there are currently Adamson's bakeries in Elie and Pittenweem. What are the chances of them being related?!
Richard
-
momat
- Posts: 704
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:50 am
- Location: New Zealand
Hi Richard,
Have you checked out the http://www.fifefhs.org/
There is lots of free data there.
Hope this helps.
Have you checked out the http://www.fifefhs.org/
There is lots of free data there.
Hope this helps.
Maureen
-
LesleyB
- Posts: 8184
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
- Location: Scotland
Hi Richard
DAVID ADDAMSON
Marriages:
Spouse: MINNIE BLACK
Marriage: 24 SEP 1803 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland
- and so it should be there on SP.
And there is one David Addamson marriage to a Black in Kilconquhar in 1803 on SP, but no credits at the moment to check it.
Best wishes
Lesley
The marriage record on IGI is an extract:However, I can't find the marriage of David and Wilhelmina
DAVID ADDAMSON
Marriages:
Spouse: MINNIE BLACK
Marriage: 24 SEP 1803 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland
- and so it should be there on SP.
And there is one David Addamson marriage to a Black in Kilconquhar in 1803 on SP, but no credits at the moment to check it.
Best wishes
Lesley
-
RChristopher
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:20 pm
- Location: Lancashire, UK
Hi Lesley
The marriage record on the IGI is confusing me a little. It looks right at first, but it doesn't fit with the births of their children. The IGI and OPRs confirm their first child, Agnes, was christened in Kilconquhar in January 1800. The OPR describes the child as daughter of "David Adamson and his wife Wilhelmina". They also had at least one other daughter before 1803 (Janet is described on the OPR as their "fourth daughter" in 1807).
Whilst they may have lied about being married for the sake of the first christening, it seems strange to wait 3 years and have more children in the meantime. Just not the done thing in those days. The David Adamson marriage in Dalgety is in 1799, a more suitable date, but cannot be verified.
All very irritating!
Richard
The marriage record on the IGI is confusing me a little. It looks right at first, but it doesn't fit with the births of their children. The IGI and OPRs confirm their first child, Agnes, was christened in Kilconquhar in January 1800. The OPR describes the child as daughter of "David Adamson and his wife Wilhelmina". They also had at least one other daughter before 1803 (Janet is described on the OPR as their "fourth daughter" in 1807).
Whilst they may have lied about being married for the sake of the first christening, it seems strange to wait 3 years and have more children in the meantime. Just not the done thing in those days. The David Adamson marriage in Dalgety is in 1799, a more suitable date, but cannot be verified.
All very irritating!
Richard
-
RChristopher
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:20 pm
- Location: Lancashire, UK
Hi again
Just had another look at the OPRs, and it does indeed look like David and Minnie didn't get married until 1803. He is described as a weaver of Earlsferry on the marriage record and on the baptism record of Janet in 1807. However, there are definitely christening entries for Agnes in 1800 and Minnie in 1802 at Kilconquhar with the parents given as David Adamson of Earlsferry and Williamina Black. It would be highly coincidental if there were 2 David Adamsons in Earlsferry, one married to Wilhelmina and the other to Williamina!
I think maybe they were just a little bit naughty!
Richard
Just had another look at the OPRs, and it does indeed look like David and Minnie didn't get married until 1803. He is described as a weaver of Earlsferry on the marriage record and on the baptism record of Janet in 1807. However, there are definitely christening entries for Agnes in 1800 and Minnie in 1802 at Kilconquhar with the parents given as David Adamson of Earlsferry and Williamina Black. It would be highly coincidental if there were 2 David Adamsons in Earlsferry, one married to Wilhelmina and the other to Williamina!
I think maybe they were just a little bit naughty!
Richard
-
LesleyB
- Posts: 8184
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
- Location: Scotland
Hi Richard
David Adamson of Earlsferry and Williamina Black his spouse
or not?
If indeed they were not married, you might be in for a very interesting and potentially rewarding time in the Kirk Session records!
Best wishes
Lesley
Can you maybe give us the exact wording of the pre-1803 birth entries? Does it at any point actually state:However, there are definitely christening entries for Agnes in 1800 and Minnie in 1802 at Kilconquhar with the parents given as David Adamson of Earlsferry and Williamina Black.
David Adamson of Earlsferry and Williamina Black his spouse
or not?
If indeed they were not married, you might be in for a very interesting and potentially rewarding time in the Kirk Session records!
Best wishes
Lesley
-
RChristopher
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:20 pm
- Location: Lancashire, UK
Hi Lesley
The entry for Agnes in 1800 definitely uses the words "his wife", whilst the entry for Minnie is unavailable. I do not know if there was any idea of a "common law" spouse in those days which would have allowed such behaviour - it seems highly unlikely.
Are we talking about 2 separate families here? By the 1841 census, only 1 son, born in 1819 is left at home, so I have never seen them all in the same household. But then again, Janet is their "4th daughter" according to the OPR. 4 daughters between 1803 and 1807? Possible, but also fits nicely with Agnes, Minnie and 1 other not yet found. Minnie being the mother's name also fits well.
What I did notice was that the officiating minister at the wedding in 1803 and Janet's baptism in 1807 was the Rev. Small, so he would have known the family. The baptism entry for 1800 is squeezed in between earlier entries so carries less information and doesn't name the minister. If it was the Reverend Small, and they weren't married until 1803, he must have been very liberal for his day. One is always lead to believe that the Scots were religious zealots in those days. Perhaps they weren't at all. I'm sure it must be possible to find out the length of his tenure.
What info might I find in the Kirk Session records? I'm afraid I'm an ignorant Sassenach!
Richard
The entry for Agnes in 1800 definitely uses the words "his wife", whilst the entry for Minnie is unavailable. I do not know if there was any idea of a "common law" spouse in those days which would have allowed such behaviour - it seems highly unlikely.
Are we talking about 2 separate families here? By the 1841 census, only 1 son, born in 1819 is left at home, so I have never seen them all in the same household. But then again, Janet is their "4th daughter" according to the OPR. 4 daughters between 1803 and 1807? Possible, but also fits nicely with Agnes, Minnie and 1 other not yet found. Minnie being the mother's name also fits well.
What I did notice was that the officiating minister at the wedding in 1803 and Janet's baptism in 1807 was the Rev. Small, so he would have known the family. The baptism entry for 1800 is squeezed in between earlier entries so carries less information and doesn't name the minister. If it was the Reverend Small, and they weren't married until 1803, he must have been very liberal for his day. One is always lead to believe that the Scots were religious zealots in those days. Perhaps they weren't at all. I'm sure it must be possible to find out the length of his tenure.
What info might I find in the Kirk Session records? I'm afraid I'm an ignorant Sassenach!
Richard
-
LesleyB
- Posts: 8184
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
- Location: Scotland
Hi Richard
see http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3726 for info on the situation in Scotland with regard to regular & irregular marriage.
However, if the marriage had been irregular, there is no way the kids would have been christened without the parents first appearing before the Kirk Session and regularising thier marriage, along with paying a fee in to the poor box for their "immoral" behaviour!
The Kirk Session records contain many items of interest - apart from the obvious day to day running of mundane things in a parish, much of the Kirk's time was spent keeping tabs on the parishoners to try to ensure they kept to the straight and narrow. Any moral failings were usually noted in the minutes, (with illegitimate children and pre- or extra- marital fornication being favourite subjects!) and the guilty party called to appear before the session for a good telling off. They can be very rich sources of information, not only about a parish in general terms, but in some parishes great detail is given on individual persons.
Although dealing with different areas, this database and the following web site are quite good just to get a general feel for the sort of issues which turn up:
http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/historicalinde ... ssion.aspx
http://www.maybole.org/community/kirkos ... ecords.htm
Best wishes
Lesley
see http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3726 for info on the situation in Scotland with regard to regular & irregular marriage.
However, if the marriage had been irregular, there is no way the kids would have been christened without the parents first appearing before the Kirk Session and regularising thier marriage, along with paying a fee in to the poor box for their "immoral" behaviour!
The Kirk Session records contain many items of interest - apart from the obvious day to day running of mundane things in a parish, much of the Kirk's time was spent keeping tabs on the parishoners to try to ensure they kept to the straight and narrow. Any moral failings were usually noted in the minutes, (with illegitimate children and pre- or extra- marital fornication being favourite subjects!) and the guilty party called to appear before the session for a good telling off. They can be very rich sources of information, not only about a parish in general terms, but in some parishes great detail is given on individual persons.
Although dealing with different areas, this database and the following web site are quite good just to get a general feel for the sort of issues which turn up:
http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/historicalinde ... ssion.aspx
http://www.maybole.org/community/kirkos ... ecords.htm
Best wishes
Lesley