Can't find a Gemmell birth or marriage - can anyone else?

[peagem]

Hi all,

I'm a newbie to this forum, so please bear with me!

My husband's family are born and bred Paisley (although some branches originate from Ayrshire and Ireland, I've since found through my research)

I've been researching for a while now but have hit a few brick walls, one in particular being on the Gemmell family:

I have a John Gemmell born 1847 Paisley to Alexander Gemmell and Jean/Jane Currie. His marriage certificate shows Alexander as a shawl weaver.

I've traced John with his parents 8 Maxwellton Street, Paisley in 1861 and living 10 W Campbell Street, Paisley in 1851. Alexander born abt 1822 Paisley, Jean/Jane born abt 1824 Paisley.

My main source for BMD's is ScotlandsPeople website, but I've not had any luck tracing John's birth record - not a big problem since I do know his parents names anyway.

But it's his father and grandfather I'm totally stuck on:

I have a marriage between Alexander Gemmll and Jean Currie at Paisley High Church on 14/11/1841 from the OPR's - but there are no other details quoted.

I think I have Alexander on the 1841 census with the Wood family on Canal Street, Paisley & I think I have Jean Currie with her parents John Currie and Margaret (ms Beith) living 49 George Street, Paisley (these parents agree with Jean/Jane's death cert).

But I'm trying to find Alexander's parents...since the OPR marriage doesn't give me any details, and I CAN'T trace a birth for Alexander, I've only got his death certificate to go on -

"Alexander Gemmell, Shawl Weaver, widower of Jane Currie, died 11.45am on 26th May 1902 at 3 Moss Street, Paisley aged 79yrs. Father: James Gemmell, Tailor (decd), mother: Agnes Gemmell nee Wilson (decd). Cause: Diahorrea 4 days, informant John Gemmell, son (present) residing 152 George Street"

But I can't find a marriage between James Gemmell and Agnes Wilson anywhere - there was one for John Gemmell and Agnes Wilson, so I don't know if Alexander's father's name was listed incorrectly on his death certificate? Is this likely?

I can't find any wills for this family

I can't find any death of Agnes Gemmell or James Gemmell

I can't find James or Agnes on the census records.

I can't find a birth for a James Gemmell or son Alexander Gemmell

Can anyone point me in a direction of where to look now, please?

I really want to find Alexander's birth abt 1822, Paisley to confirm his parents.

I really want to find his parents marriage and where they are on census records.

I really want to find out when they died...

Please, please help me if you have any ideas of where I can look now?! Or thoughts on my John/James possible error.

Thank you

Paula Gemmell

[DavidWW]

Welcome to TalkingScot

Hi all,

I'm a newbie to this forum, so please bear with me!

My husband's family are born and bred Paisley (although some branches originate from Ayrshire and Ireland, I've since found through my research)

I've been researching for a while now but have hit a few brick walls, one in particular being on the Gemmell family:

I have a John Gemmell born 1847 Paisley to Alexander Gemmell and Jean/Jane Currie. His marriage certificate shows Alexander as a shawl weaver.

I've traced John with his parents 8 Maxwellton Street, Paisley in 1861 and living 10 W Campbell Street, Paisley in 1851. Alexander born abt 1822 Paisley, Jean/Jane born abt 1824 Paisley.

My main source for BMD's is ScotlandsPeople website, but I've not had any luck tracing John's birth record - not a big problem since I do know his parents names anyway.

But it's his father and grandfather I'm totally stuck on:

You've done well so far !

I have a marriage between Alexander Gemmll and Jean Currie at Paisley High Church on 14/11/1841 from the OPR's - but there are no other details quoted.

Relatively uncommon to find more info !

I think I have Alexander on the 1841 census with the Wood family on Canal Street, Paisley & I think I have Jean Currie with her parents John Currie and Margaret (ms Beith) living 49 George Street, Paisley (these parents agree with Jean/Jane's death cert).

Alexander is always going to be a problem if he is not together with his parents. Given his likely age of ca. 19 in 1841 it could well be the case that he was not living with his parents, always assuming that they were alive.

What's the Canal St Alex's occupation?

But I'm trying to find Alexander's parents...since the OPR marriage doesn't give me any details, and I CAN'T trace a birth for Alexander, I've only got his death certificate to go on -

"Alexander Gemmell, Shawl Weaver, widower of Jane Currie, died 11.45am on 26th May 1902 at 3 Moss Street, Paisley aged 79yrs. Father: James Gemmell, Tailor (decd), mother: Agnes Gemmell nee Wilson (decd). Cause: Diahorrea 4 days, informant John Gemmell, son (present) residing 152 George Street"

But I can't find a marriage between James Gemmell and Agnes Wilson anywhere - there was one for John Gemmell and Agnes Wilson, so I don't know if Alexander's father's name was listed incorrectly on his death certificate? Is this likely?

Yes, - far from unknown for a son, as informant, to get some details wrong, although more likely in relation to a grannie's maiden name than his grandpa's given name; but then the stress of the death can lead to substantial errors.

I can't find any wills for this family

Only 9% or less left a testament (will) that turns up in the records relating to those that underwent the Scottish process of confirmation (think probate in English terms).

Never mind that it would be relatively unusual for a tailor to have left a testament.

I can't find any death of Agnes Gemmell or James Gemmell

Far from impossible that both died prior to 1855.

I can't find James or Agnes on the census records.

Which tends to confirm the possibility of pre-1855 deaths.

I'm assuming that you have used wildcards in your search on ScotlandsPeople, e.g. GEM*L, to pick up single "L" and second vowel "A" variants. Also worth a try with "G*M*L" in case the pronunciation as heard by the registrar was heard as GAMMAL, or something similar.

I can't find a birth for a James Gemmell or son Alexander Gemmell

They could have been Catholics, - any evidence of this from later marriage records?, - or members of one of many presbyterian secession churches, - same question

Equally so it could have been the case that one or both births were never registered. Especially in the cities, and large urban areas such as Paisley, it's known that up to 50% or more of births weren't registered in the early decades of the 19th century.

And, further equally so, one or both births may have been registered but the record(s) haven't survived.

Can anyone point me in a direction of where to look now, please?

Good question

Try the Renfrewshire FHS and maybe also the Glasgow & West of Scotland FHS to see what exists and has been indexed as part of the Scottish NBI (National Burial Index) for possible pre-1855 deaths.

Worth checking also to see what might exist as street directories for Paisley in the decades in question.

Ditto with the Paisley Library (see the home page tab here on TS for contact details) to see what listings there may have been of tailors in Paisley.

It could also be worthwhile establishing what municipal burial and lair ownership records exist pre-1855, although you may already have done this; never mind that it's doubtful if there will be many extant pre-1841 records .....

I really want to find Alexander's birth abt 1822, Paisley to confirm his parents.

Understood, but you may need to accept that such a record was never made; was made but hasn't survived to the present day; or is "hiding" in church records other than those of the Established Church of Scotland, - have a look at the NAS (National Archives of Scotland) website to check on the many secession churches that I'm sure will have existed in the early decades of the 19th century in Paisley

I really want to find his parents marriage and where they are on census records.

I really want to find out when they died...

See above

Please, please help me if you have any ideas of where I can look now?! Or thoughts on my John/James possible error.

Thank you

Paula Gemmell

Hopefully all the above comments help, if only in terms of explaining why it may not be possible to break down this brick wall..........

David

[HeatherH]

Hello peagem,
I was wondering if your Gemmel Family includes an Andrew W Gemmel born 1844 Paisley?
He later marries Mary Holmes in 1870 and they have 7 children that I have found on census.
Agnes Wallace Gemmel
Mary McKechnie Gemmel
Janet Gemmel
Martha Gemmel
Jane Gemmel
Andrew Gemmel
William Gemmel

Mary Holmes is my 2nd Great Aunt and neither the Wallace or McKechnie names appear in her tree so far so I assume they are from Andrew's Gemmels.
Regards,
HeatherH

[peagem]

Wow, firstly, thank you, David, for your reply...It's really helped confirm things for me - I had resigned myself to probably never solving this one, but it's nice to hear someone else explain about the 50% non-registrations and the various religions - as far as I can tell from later family marriage certificates it was a Church of Scotland family, though....still it may not have always been so. also the statistics about testaments is interesting...I have found one for a writer in Paisley who COULD be Jean Currie's mother's father Alexander Skeoch, which was fascinating reading...but this is the only one I've ever had success with (and I'm not totally sure he's an ancestor!)

Your new leads as to where to look now have given me a task, so I'll have a try with those (although, I'm not holding out much hope )

I have found another Gemmell descendant who has done their own research - but they have totally different parents for both Alexander and his wife Jean Currie....I have no idea where they got their info from, and I'm just waiting to hear from them as to what their sources are - maybe I've gone wrong with my research...I AM only going off the death certificate of Jean and Alexander (can't think of how else to find out parents!), so I'll wait and see if I get anything to help me from this other lady too...

As to your question regarding the 1841 Canal Street Alex's occupation - it's HLW...presumably Hand Loom Weaver...on the 1851 census, my Alex is a HL Weaver, and throughout all the other census records up to 1901 he's a weaver of some sort.

The Alex on the 1841 census is listed last on the family below a younger Gemmell - James aged abt 15...an "Ap HLW" - I guess that this is Alexander's brother, but without finding parents and finding births of other children of Alex and Jean (unlikely) then I don't see how I can prove or disprove this one.

[-o< I need a miracle to get this one sorted! Fingers crossed one of your recommendations could have a vital clue

Thanks, David,

Kindest regards

Paula

*******************

Hiya Heather,

Thaks for your Gemmel connections...I don't have Andrew as a son of Alexander though - his first daughter was Isabella Morgan Gemmell born 13/10/1844 in Paisley. Andrew could possibly be a cousin to Isabella and my John, but as per my above post, without finding birth records (which probably don't exist) I don't know who Alexander's siblings are...except for the possible James on the 1841 census. I don't know how big the Gemmell family were in Paisley...whether there were a few families closely connected or not.

I've just had a quick look on IGI and there was an Andrew Gemmel b 10/11/1845 Abbey (Paisley), Refrew father James Gemmel, mother Jane Brice (Could this be Alexander's possble brother James on the 1841 census?)

There's also an Andrew Gemmell born to the possible parents of Alexander (JOHN Gemmell and Agnes Wilson) he was born 28/07/1843, chr 17/09/1843 Ouplaymoor, Neilston, Renfrew.

Interesting though that one of the IGI's has father James...I wonder what happened to the lad on the 1841 census - I may start looking into Alexander's possible brother, to check for leads.

Unfortunately I've not come across Wallace or McKechnie in my Gemmell research - Alexander's children have middle names of Morgan, Wilson and Mason. I'll make a note of your names though in case I do ever [!!] find more about these Gemmells and find a link to my hubby's family.

Thanks for replying to my post...

Best wishes

Paula

[David Lang]

I too have had problem s with my Gemmell's , my lot are from Johnstone and move to Glasgow around the 1850s and then seem to wither stay there or depart back to Paisley.

I put there non appearence in OPRs as down to there were "free" church members and some that i still know still are!!

[peagem]

I too have had problem s with my Gemmell's , my lot are from Johnstone and move to Glasgow around the 1850s and then seem to wither stay there or depart back to Paisley.

I put there non appearence in OPRs as down to there were "free" church members and some that i still know still are!!

Thanks David, I must admit to be baffled by all the various religious institutions - I've just tried looking up about the Free Church and feel even more ignorant than I did at the beginning

Why would Free Church Members not be listed on OPR's - did they not have a parish church, as such?

Sorry to sound dense, but I guess, on this point, I am a bit ignorant

Can anybody explain?

Thanks

Paula

[AnnieMack]

I have Gemmells from Ayrshire to Paisley through the David Gemmell/Mary Hood or McHood route. Their daughter Jane or Jeannie married a Hector McKinnon in 1881.

Don't know if they are connected as siblings or cousins to your Gemmells.

Annie

[peagem]

I have Gemmells from Ayrshire to Paisley through the David Gemmell/Mary Hood or McHood route. Their daughter Jane or Jeannie married a Hector McKinnon in 1881.

Don't know if they are connected as siblings or cousins to your Gemmells.

Annie

Hi Annie,

I didn't realise there were so many Gemmells about

Certainly going back to Alexander's birth abt 1820 that was in Paisley - but obviously I don't know wher his parents came from...no Ayrshire connetion yet though, and I've not come across the names you mention...but if I can somehow get past this brickwall on Alexanders parents I may be able to find a connection - maybe they're distant cousins?

I'll keep searching

Thanks for replying to my post,

Paula

[LesleyB]

Hi Paula

I've just tried looking up about the Free Church...Why would Free Church Members not be listed on OPR's - did they not have a parish church, as such?

The Free Church broke away from the Established Church in 1843, so any Free Church births or marriages would not be recorded in the OPRs, as the OPRs (with a few exceptions) are only the records of the Established Church of Scotland. Many Free Churches kept their own records of Births, Marriages & etc, but these willl not be found on Scotlands People, which only has the OPRs available. Many of these Free Church records are held at NAS.

A similar situation occurs with other churches who were not Established Church of Scotland e.g. Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians etc.

A summary of the splits in the Scottish Church can be found here:
http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7931

Best wishes
Lesley

[peagem]

Hi Paula
The Free Church broke away from the Established Church in 1843, so any Free Church births or marriages would not be recorded in the OPRs, as the OPRs (with a few exceptions) are only the records of the Established Church of Scotland. Many Free Churches had their own records of Births, Marriages & etc, but these willl not be found on Scotlands People, which only has the OPRs available. Many are held at NAS.

A similar situation occurs with other churches who were not Established Church of Scotland e.g. Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians etc.

Best wishes
Lesley

Thanks Lesley,

Can you tell me if any of these other denominations' records are available online? I'm currently living in South Africa so I'm a tad dependant on the internet for my research

Thanks

Paula