Three Jolly Orphans

[Jamboesque]

Hi folks,

Can any kind soul help point to how I could lose track of three orphans. Their last location is in Auchenblae, Fordoun in Kincardineshire in 1887 when their mother died.

http://www.talkingscot.com/gallery/disp ... m=62&pos=1


I’ve uploaded a diagram to show the times and location of the attributable events in their parents and the children’s lives. I like drawing these diagrams it makes it easier to see where and when the major players are fixed. I don’t know, maybe someone can enlighten me, of any genealogical software that can do similar, but I digress.

James Jolly (1846 – 1884) and Jane Buchan (1846 – 1887) married in Auchenblae Apr 1874. James was employed down in Cheshire where they moved after the wedding. They had at least 2 of their 3 children William James Jolly (1875) & Mary Buchan Jolly (1877) whilst in Cheshire but I reckon that their third child James was born in Ireland when they moved over there. When James died at 39 in Ireland Mary brought the children back to Fordoun but unfortunately she died three years later in 1887, James jnr. would be 12, Mary 10 and James, unknown. One might expect them to appear in some form on the 1891 Census, but having learnt about wildcards and soundex naming I can find no trace. They are mentioned, though not by name in their grandmothers will in 1892 when they would inherit their mother share on their majority, but they also would inherit a considerable sum from their mother’s estate, £368 8/4 or roughly £175000 in todays terms.

I’m kind of stuck, I’ve even tried looking for a name change to Buchan in the 1891 census, no joy.

Any help/advice would be gratefully received.

Jack

[JustJean]

Hi Jack

I can't tell you how many times I've pulled this one out and run around in circles with it. No more than you already have I'm certain! Basically I'm here to ask the silly question........How do you know the children were back in Scotland when their mother died? Yes you would assume that as they were young and it's only logical for them to remain with the surviving parent.....but since there was no census in Scotland before the death of mum............and you don't know exactly where they were living or who with in Ireland...or do you?

I'm troubled too that they have a mention in the grandmothers will and it would appear this was written after their mother's death so it would indicate the children were still alive....but where? Why not with a family member? Is is possible there was family in England or Ireland??? Have you tracked down all possible leads on siblings or cousins of James and Jane?

And then what about any court records? I have no idea how Scotland would administer an inheritance at majority.....but would there be a record of it somewhere??

Not much help but surely an answer must be out there somewhere

Best wishes
Jean

[Jamboesque]

Jean,

Thanks for looking into this apparent black hole…..

I’ll try and address your queries on a point by point basis.

1. Page 3 of Jane Jolly/Buchan’s testament and I’ll quote “That the deponent is the father-in law of the said deceased Mrs Jane Buchan or Jolly and is desirous to enter upon the possession and management of the deceased’s Estate as her executor qua factor appointed by the Sheriff of the County of Kincardine upon the fifth day of September ######## (can’t read) for William Jolly, Mary Jolly and James Jolly all now or lately residing in the Parish of Fordoun and County of Kincardine only children of the said deceased.”
2. Remember in grand-mum’s Will & Testament (1892) they are referred as per this quote “and as my daughter Jane has died I direct my trustees and executors to lodge in Bank the share of my means and estate which would have fallen to he , and pay over the amounts to her children equally on attaining their majority.” Note that it mentions children so it might only be 2 off them at this point and their location is not even hinted at.
3. James Jolly, Mary’s husband had 6 Siblings, 3 girls and 3 boys, I’ve accounted for most of with the exception of one brother who would be 22 at Williams birth I will check but I’m not convinced.
4. Jane had 1 Sister and 2 brothers, I not sure about her sister Margaret and either of her brothers are pretty much non-starters the eldest James maintained her mothers business in Fordoun and checks out with no children that fits, I think he only had one or two. The other brother, Thomas, left for the States and returned to live in Liverpool and was there in 1892.

I think the answer maybe in Ireland, and I think it has something to with the fact that she Jane Jolly (nee Buchan) chose her father-in –law ie James’ father as executor in preference to her siblings one of whom she seemed to be staying with.

A nightmare to be sure, thanks for asking me to re-examining the bits and bobs I’ve got.


Jack

[JustJean]

Hi Jack

Well you've give me some more clues! Now I'm back with more questions for you

You mentioned the 6 siblings to James.....

1. MARY ANN JOLLY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 05 DEC 1858 Arbuthnott, Kincardine, Scotland

2. WILLIAM JOLLY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 25 OCT 1855 Arbuthnott, Kincardine, Scotland

3. JANE JOLLY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 07 OCT 1850 Arbuthnott, Kincardine, Scotland

4. ROBERT JOLLY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 01 NOV 1852 Arbuthnott, Kincardine, Scotland

5. JOHN JOLLY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 13 NOV 1848 Arbuthnott, Kincardine, Scotland

6. JAMES JOLLY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 23 JAN 1846 Laurencekirk, Kincardine, Scotland

7. ISOBELLA JOLLY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 26 JUN 1843 Laurencekirk, Kincardine, Scotland

Which one of his sisters married James Reid? I can't find a MC in Scotland for any Jolly wedding to a Reid.......but by golly James Reid is surely the informant on his mother in laws DC...and he just so happens to reside in County Wexford. The townland looks like Courtown Gorey and a peek on the sean ruad townland website pops up with this data:

Townland : COURTOWN HARBOUR , County of Wexford, Barony of Ballaghkeen, Civil Parish of Ardamine, PLU of Gorey, Province of Leinster

But now for the bit of sad news......the only census records I can find online for County Wexford for 1901 are partial ones.....and there is no James Reid and family in those that will fit.....

I'd certainly begin with this family for hoping to find the lost Jolly's....what do you think?

Best wishes
Jean

[Jamboesque]

Hi Jean,

You’ve gone right to the point, as usual
I should at this point say that Jane Jolly married a James Hood, who not only were my great grand parents but were also witness’s at Jane Buchan & James Jolly’s wedding.

Both James’s were Land Steward/Farm Bailiffs

The Hoods also ventured to Ireland to seek fame and fortune (well fortune mostly) however things went a bit belly up for the Hoods, I think they lost a lot of money and came not long after the birth of Jane’s first born , a girl called Alice in 1880, from later census returns her place of birth is County Wexford (that’s the best I can do for now) and from 1881 are to be found in Leith living a long, much longer than James & Jane Jolly and having 9 children into the bargain. James’ occupation is quoted on various B C’s and Census as lorryman / potato merchant a bit of a social climbdown from being a part of the country middle class.

I’m glad you couldn’t find a marriage for James Reid to a Jolly girl, I’ve been looking as well for about a year or so. The Reids also figure in other parts of the Jolly Tree. James Jolly’s aunt Margaret Jolly (1812-1884) married a Hugh Reid and initially I thought there was a link to James Reid (notifier of Mary Jolly/Balfour’s death in Glasgow) but I can’t see one.

The other intriguing fact is that Jane & James’ mother Mary Jolly/Balfour home address on her D C was given as 203 Blythswood Gardens (which I can’t find even on Old-maps.co.uk). There are two things about that .
1. At this time there are no other members of the Jolly clan living in Glasgow she was from Farming stock up in Kincardineshire.
2. What type of property was 203 Blythswood Gardens.

Mary Jolly/Balfour does not have a Census return in 1891 in Scotland and there is no Testament / Will, so what happened to all the money that she was left, is it in Ireland somewhere?

I really need to find out what went on in Ireland (County Wexford), that’s the nub of it.
Jack

[Yanni]

I'm new to this so don't know if you are still searching. Jane Buchan and James Jolly (died in a farm accident at Shankill Castle in 1884 and buried in the Scots Church in Carlow) were my great grandparents. They had the three children you mention but the eldest (William) also died in a farm accident but not sure where, was told he was about fourteen when it happened - family legend has it that it was in Scotlabnd. The youngest (James) was my grandfather and lived with my family - in Glasgow - until he died on 25th January 1973. He was born on 14th February 1879 and he always told us it was in Kilkenny but the records for then have been destroyed. He is on the Irish census in 1901 living in Abbeyleix as a single man, it looks like a lodging house - and in 1911 in Lisduff - by then he was married and had three of his four children, including my father, another James. His sister Mary, trained as a seamstress with a family member in Glasgow then married a ? Caplan and went to Australia. Her daughter, Olga Stacpole together with her husband had a sheep station out there but I don't know any more than that.

As a child I used to hear him complaining that he had been done out of money but didn't listen more closely so there may be something in the missing money story.

Yanni

[Alan SHARP]

Greetings. I've sent a private message to Jack, incase he has not caught up to this post and replied by PM.

Alan SHARP.