Irvine Cemeteries incl. Old Parish Cemetery

[Adquick]

This is a follow-on topic from one I had already started under the heading 'Dundonald Churchyard'.

Having been directed away from the village of Dundonald towards Irvine and then by Fullarton Church having no record of what I was seeking, I followed advice to contact the North Ayrshire Bereavment Service. I was seeking the burial place of Jane/Jean/Jeanie Allan (m.s. Smith), who died on Church Street in the Parish of Dundonald, which I now accept was probably Church Street, Irvine in the Parish of Dundonald on the 9th June 1883.

The North Ayrshire Bereavment Service could find no record of her burial. They asked if I could add any information that might aid them and I gave them the name of the daughter whose birth she had died after, as the daughter had died a short time after. She was Mary Smith Allan, born 7th June 1883 and died of Enteric Fever (Typhoid) on the 13th September 1884 at 15 ????gate Street, Irvine.

Still they were unable to find any record of either burial. They suggested that they may have been buried at the Irvine Old Parish Cemetery but owing to loss by fire, they had no records covering the period I was interested in - 1883/84.

Two questions therefore:
1) Might anyone have any knowledge of stone inscriptions for the Irvine Old Parish Cemetery?
2) Is it likely that some who had been born in Riccarton and died in Irvine in the 1880s would be returned to their place of birth for burial? The issues of cost and transport occur to me - her husband was the Irvine School Board Officer so cost may not have been an issue.

Alistair

[Russell]

Hi Alistair
I can't answer your first question about Riccarton memorial inscriptions but can give some evidence of folk returning to their natal village. I have several entries from the Kilbarchan East Church burial Lair record of folk moving to Glasgow and being brought back to the family Lair for burial. 20 miles or so was not a particularly long transport by horse and cart and there were many carriers businesses who would carry out the business. The Lair records cover from 1790's to the late 1800's and some were certainly not wealthy families.
In the Highlands and islands burial grounds were quite some distance from villages and the coffin would be carried by family and friends and there were regular stopping places where the carrying team changed over - with the fortification of a wee dram or two

Russell

[Montrose Budie]

Very common in Scotland in that era for someone to be buried in their parish of birth, hence the existence of 'coffin roads' in Scotland, along which a team of 6, 12, 18 or more, as required, would carry the coffin the few or many miles involved .......

Consumption of spirituous liquors during the journey was severely frowned on, as the major objective was to get the coffin to the graveyard for the assigned hour. Once that was accomplished, however, the hip flasks might well have come out and a wee libation or three taken.


And hence also a major difference between funeral customs in Scotland compared with England, even to the present day, - after the interment, or cremation these days, everyone in Scotland repairs to a local hotel or hostelry to partake of a meal, - the guid auld Scots word being 'purvey', - which includes a dram or three, - and a celebration of the deceased's life via one of more speechs, and lots of craic, - getting towards the Irish 'wake'; as opposed to everyone going their way immediately after the interment or whatever, as is the case in England.


The historical background being that folk obviously required some sustenance after transporting the coffin the distance involved, including those not involved in the interment, strictly men only back then, i.e. the ladies who had also travelled to wherever the purvey was offered.

You'll even find the custom up to the present day, but sometimes also with complications.

For example, my father, born in Glasgow, was buried in Girvan, where his father, b. Montrose, - see my handle!, - was buried, because that's where he retired with his Lochwinnoch-born wife, whose parents were from Girvan. Work that one out !


It fell to me to travel out to Portugal to make the arrangements for my Aunt Margaret's funeral in Silves. I was determined that this should be a 'proper' Scots funeral, so the purvey was laid on at a local restaurant for her friends, many of whom were English, and who had to have it explained to them why we were having a meal and glass or three of wine, as opposed to dispersing immediately after the interment.

It was a rather different interment, BTW, since we had to return the day after to inter the coffin as the grave was completely flooded the original day ............

mb

[Adquick]

Thank you both 'Russell' and 'Montrose Budie' for your contributions.

The division of the lads and lassies reminds me of the funeral of one of my Grandfathers in Cathcart, Glasgow in 1965. We were all foregathered at the family home but only the menfolk left to attend the burial. The womenfolk remained behind and prepared a feast, which was consumed after the event. Bein' a tee-total family though, there wisnae ony whisky efter!

I recall that it was the only time I saw coffin cord cards used. I was handed this wee card with the outline of a coffin on it and the numbers 1-6 around it - I still have it somewhere. As the eldest grandchild, I made the list at number 6 and when the coffin was lowered into the grave, I held and played out a ceremonial green rope with tassles as the Corporation men did the real work.

I've never been to a funeral like that since.

Alistair

[WilmaM]

'Coffin cards' are still used, every burial I've been at featured them.
An other tradition was to cut the tassel off te cord and keep it as a memento - I recall my dad used to carry a penknife if he was a pallbearer, and my Gran had some in amongst her sewing things [her husband and daughter's I think].

[garibaldired]

as opposed to everyone going their way immediately after the interment or whatever, as is the case in England.

You've obviously not been to many funerals in England

Best wishes,
Meg

[Alan SHARP]

Greetings mb, from NZ.

Your observations regarding the funeral experience in Portugal brings back memories. In my Young Farmer’s Club days it was always a challenge to find engaging subjects, and speakers, for the monthly meetings. I well remember the night an exasperated Chairman, through suggestions for speakers, over to the floor of the meeting, and a little voice suggested that we could invite an undertaker. Much laughter ensued, but it was not long before first one, and then the other leading undertaker’s of Hamilton City, travelled out to the club to give us an inside to the profession. Both gentlemen proved to be excellent speakers.

One account was of travelling out to a remote coastal funeral where the cemetery was a little distant from where the service was to take place. Once there he checked that the grave was prepared, then caught up with the Minister but could not understand why the service, and then refreshments were taking so long, as they both had a long journey back to the City. Could not the Minister speed things up ? "Don’t be impatient laddie” was the Ministers reply. “You see there’s a spring tide today, and if you are in too much of a hurry you will be called back again tomorrow to reinter the coffin.” Have patience, and let the tide recede. Sure enough when the interment finally took place, there was evidence of the tide’s visit in the bottom of the whole, and the adjacent pile of rocks was used as a weight on the coffin lid, before being buried.

Another account was at the expense of a large furniture and white ware retailer. Very large, semi commercial, chest freezers became very popular with farmers and country folk, to store a home killed beast. On occasion hire purchase payments ceased, forcing re-procession proceedings. On this occasion, upon calling at the residents cottage, the agent was re-directed to the local community centre, where the freezer owner was found attending a funeral. When the agent enquired about the chest freezer, the owner pointed to an extension cord that lead out across the green to the shade of some nearby weeping willow trees, and there in the heat of a very hot summers day, lay reposed, the dearly departed, awaiting for all his relatives and friends to arrive, for his funeral. Needless to say the agent did not reprocess the freezer.

Alan SHARP.