Help deciphering a marriage document

[LesleyB]

Hi Linda

Though I don't think Carnbee is big enough to have wee closies...
It may be explained in the Kirk Session records.
Two questions here: what are 'wee closies", and how does one go about finding this information in the Kirk Session records?

Wee closies = small narrow passages between buildngs which are known as "a close" in Scotland. Elderly relatives (and I guess those not so elderly) would possibly refer to such a passage as a "wee closie" just as shops were a "wee shoppie" & etc....

Total cost 12/-
Does that mean the third entry would be for 1£ 4 Pence?

There are 20 shillings in a pound, and money tends to be expressed as "pounds-shillings-pennies". I'm seeing the third entry from the top of th page as 00:05:00 so = 5/- (shillings)

Kirk Session records can be found at National Archives of Scotland, in Edinburgh and are on the PCs there, as all (almost all?) are now digitised. The originals are either held at NAS or at local archives. There are plans afoot to make these digital versions accessable online in the future. No date that I know of, but I'm pretty sure it will not be until 2009 for the general public to access.

My interpretation, given the nature of the document and having seen a number of other Kirk Session documents from Fife, would be that David Wilson, David Laing, John Wilson, Alexander Thomson & etc are Kirk Elders who tended to be responsible for collecting in monies.

Pro Primo, Pro Tertio, Eodem die are all Latin - for [the] first [time], for [the] third [time]. (referring to the banns being read out three times prior to the marriage taking place) and Eodem die = [on the] same day.
Best wishes
Lesley

p.s. third entry down from the marriage (got it now...!! ) I see as 01:10:04 so "one pound, ten shillings and fourpence"

[Russell]

Hi Linda

Like Lesley I think that the 'pens' entries relate to book-feeping entries by the Clerk to the Board and not to the marriage entries.
Ledgers were large, expensive books and small rural parishes would not have a lot of cash to spend on cash entry ledgers so any available book could be used.
I have seen them used for recording the income from fines imposed by the Kirk Session on defaulters from Sunday attendance or some of the other services called during the week. They could also record when 'irregular' marriages were regularised by the Session and a fee paid.

The surname Kea /Kae is often recorded in Kilrenny parish as Keay, or Kay in later entries so it is a local name and there was no correct spelling of names back then. Even abbreviations used in an entry were iidiosyncratic. The Clerk might record the word in full in one entry then abbreviate it in a later entry. In this case the name Robert has been shortened to 'Ro' and I have not seen this used before. Usually it is Rbt.
The terms 'pro primo' and 'pro tertio' indicates that the Banns were called 'for the first time' or 'third time' on............
The entries where 'col' by John Ireland or Jon Wilson is recorded are a record of the amounts gathered by that church elder during a particular church service. 'Pen' may relate to penalty payments for some unspecified infraction or other.
That whole page was like unravelling a wooly jumper to separate out the different strands of wool.

That's my thoughts anyway unless someone has a better explanation.

Russell

I see that Lesley got in before me

[LesleyB]

'Pen' may relate to penalty payments for some unspecified infraction or other.

Good thinking Russell....

[LesleyB]

In addition, I think the "to" as in "to the pens" is actually do. as in ditto...as in:
by him do. the pens - everytime it pops up the word Colt (collected) is above it.

[Linfleks]

Hi, Russell,

Thank you for taking the time to help interpret this! When you mention that the books were used for multiple purposes, which would explain various entries, do you mean that the part pertaining to Andrew Whyte and Isable Kea is basically confined to the single line, or would it also include the line that follows that entry?

And would you also think that perhaps they are mentioned in other pages, as there was no mention made of their Banns?

Thanks for the excellent information!

Regards,
Linda

[Russell]

Hi Linda

I think that the single line is the sum total of their entry.

Many churches could not afford to pay the literate officer who was needed to make the ledger entries and keep the books up to date, much of a stipend so there was great variation in the quality of the entries from one parish to the next. Even within the same parish some officers made each entry as it occurred, others made notes and copied in a batch of entries all together. This explains why some entries can be out of date order in the Register.
Not all requests for the Banns to be read were recorded and not every Proclamation of Banns led to actual marriage, tho' most did.

I was fascinated to discover that even as early as 1710 there were printers selling beautifully leather bound Registers for Births and Marriages as well as huge tomes for the purchase of Lairs in the burying ground. (I've just transcribed one of those )

Russell

[LesleyB]

The line under the mention of your couple is , I think
30th Colt. by Alex. Thomson
(not "both") as I thought it might have been earlier.

Best wishes
Lesley

[Linfleks]

Even within the same parish some officers made each entry as it occurred, others made notes and copied in a batch of entries all together. This explains why some entries can be out of date order in the Register.

I was fascinated to discover that even as early as 1710 there were printers selling beautifully leather bound Registers for Births and Marriages as well as huge tomes for the purchase of Lairs in the burying ground. (I've just transcribed one of those )

Russell,

There is a baptismal record for one of my ancestors I found that went that little 'extra mile'. After listing the event, it went on to record that it had been the last baptism done by the minister. He "took sick and died 8 days later". It put a truly human spin on things, I thought.

Some of the records I've read are quite elaborate; providing information about both sets of parents, what birth order the offspring getting married were, occupations, etc. Those are great! Unfortunately, from what I've seen, rare. Quite a boon when you get one, though.

And one has to marvel at the handwriting on many of them. It's beautifully done!

I've not seen a book of the age you're describing, but it must be a real treat to be able to work with it. Given the small amount of space type takes up, they must have been able to supply more information? Some of the old records make fascinating reading!

Linda

[Russell]

Hi again Linda

How I wish that the Kirk Session records were on-line They augment the Register entries and make totally fascinating reading.
Its strange to think of the Church - or at least its staunchest adherents, acting as local community police, pillars of moral rectitude, collectors of charity funds, and administrators in who should or should not be given material or financial support in times of hardship. Some of the prevailing attitudes seep through into the Birth and Marriage entries and additional comments give an insight into the attitudes and dedication of the church officer.
It begins to be obvious who actually ran the church when an entry refers to Mr ......whatever his name was, or John Smith Esquire or a tradesman is referred to by occupation as well as by name. Money talks until you discover that the Heritors also had a legal obligation to fund the support that the church gave out.
Scottish church history is so complicated and subject to regional variation that it is a study in its own right.
Joe Bloggs may have been Protestant - but what flavour/brand/persuasion did he follow

Russell

[joette]

My runaway fav is still the extra pages on the St Quivox BMD pages which gives the account of either a suspected rape or marital infidelity which was witnessed by two or three others.They could not decide & unfortunatly the account ended abruptly.
St Quivox's is full of burials & causes of death(chin cough seems to be very prevalent there) & the description of several "Jane & John Doe"
Worth viewing if you get a chance at your FHC.