Agnes Allan - Can't find birth or be sure of death

MJayne · Post by **MJayne** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:33 pm

Am trying to find my GGGGM, Agnes Allan and hope someone out there can help or provide a bit of guidance.

I have her on GGGF's BC - Robert ALLAN 05/07/1870 in Ayr. He was illegitimate so no husband but her mother is the witness - Jane ALLAN. On GGGF's DC, she is noted as having later married a Robert Bruce - 10/09/1889 also Ayr and her parents are noted as William ALLAN (deceased) and Jane Allan nee SMITH. No sign of natural son (Robert Allan - my GGGF) with her on any census following his birth.

Think I now go off on the wrong track. I thought I had her on 1901 census with step-children in New Ardrossan and then her DC 07/07/1924 in New Ardrossan but the parents don't match at all - Thomas and Agnes Allan nee Templeton. The witness is her eldest step-son (matches that 1901 cencus hit) so he might have got the details wrong but they seem too wrong to me. I think this might be a different Agnes Allan - not impossible that 2 Agnes Allans and Robert Bruces got married in Ayrshire - I did only get one hit on SP though.

I am trying to find her birth and have been going with William and Jane as her parents but am not having much success. She will have been born c1853 and I reckon probably somewhere in Ayrshire. I also cannot find a marriage for William Allan and Jane Smith.

I am very much hoping someone can help. This line is a nightmare to follow!

Many thanks

Jayne

Post by **emanday** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:59 pm

Hi Jayne,

The problem with DC informants is that they might THINK they know, but we have all had experience where birth and marriage certificates can be usually taken as probably correct, while death certificates are down to family memory and / or the emotional state of the informant.

As an example - my son only really knows my maiden name because it is his first name! My brother-in-law, when asked, couldn't even get close to our mother's maiden name

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:17 am

Hi Jayne

A question......are you certain that both the BC and the DC you have for your GGGF Robert ALLAN are really his? The reason I ask this....the one BC you have found is recorded in 1870 in Ayr at Alloway St and his grandmother Jane ALLAN is the informant and she was present. If you search the 1871 census for Alloway Street and ALLAN (possible on Ancestry) then you find this interesting family...

Name: Jane Allan
Age: 56
Estimated birth year: abt 1815
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: County Down, Ireland
Registration Number: 578/1
Registration district: Ayr Burgh
Civil parish: Ayr
Town: Ayr
County: Ayrshire
Address: 30 Alloway Street
Occupation: Annuitant

Household Members:
James Allan age 17, son, occ: gardener b. Maybole
Jane Allan head, age 56
Jane Allan age 19, dau, occ: Domestic servant . b Maybole
Robert Harbison age 8mo , grandson, b. Ayr

The 1871 census was taken 2-3 April.....Robert ALLAN was born in the July preceeding....which makes him look to be the Robert HARBISON enumerated above with no sign of Agnes. Does this fit with what you know of him? Is HARBISON a leading indicator of his real father? Do you have Agnes on the 1871 census elsewhere?.....or is it possible that she is really the Jane age 19 in this household???

And if you do have her in 1871 and are now thinking the above Robert is yours then I would say Agnes may have been born in Maybole....and she may have a brother James and a sister Jane and her parents may have married in Ireland before coming to Ayrshire. Alot of mays.....but a place to start looking...

Best wishes
Jean

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:36 am

Just to confuse things further....this looks likely to be the same family on the 1861 census in Maybole....but still no Agnes.......

Name: Jane Allan
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1816
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : William
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Registration Number: 605
Registration district: Maybole
Civil parish: Maybole
County: Ayrshire
Address: Ottereten House

Household Members:
James Allan age 7, son
Jane Allan age 45, wife
Jane Allan age 10, dau
Mary Allan age 76, mother, b. Ireland
Sarah Allan age 4. dau
William Allan age 45, b. Ireland, occ: Ag Lab

but this is stating places of birth of James, Jane, and wee Sarah of Ayr. I had to look and yes wee Sarah's birth is recorded in in 1856 Ayr....and her mother's mn is stated as Jane CASH. Not sure this is helping at all.....

Best wishes
Jean

MJayne · Post by **MJayne** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:29 pm

Guys,

Thanks so much for your info. Think I will start at the beginning again with this line. The only information I feel 100% about is that on my GGFs MC and DC. His details are:

Robert Hannah ALLAN
Died 17/06/1947 aged 42 years
Married - Sarah Scott (previously Byrnes - widow) on 23/12/1927
Father - Robert Allan, Dock Labourer
Mother - Jean (or Jane) Buchanan Allan nee Hannah
Both parents alive on 23/12/1927 and deceased by 17/06/1947.
He was originally from Ayrshire (Gran's info).

These are the only details I am confident in as they match what my Gran told me. She couldn't give me his d.o.b though.

As his parents didn't marry until 1918, I followed the advice of another poster and found an illegitimate Robert Allan Hannah born on 11/02/1905 in Maybole, Ayr to a Jane Hannah. This might be where I go off on the wrong track. So will be starting here again.

Wish me luck. As usual - all help or guidance much appreciated.

Thanks!

Jayne

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:33 pm

Hi Jayne

You're on the right track.....just not with this thread! Just look at the DC of his mum....

1930 ALLAN JANE HANNAH F 52 SPRINGBURN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/06 0082

Best wishes
Jean

MJayne · Post by **MJayne** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:38 pm

Jean,

I am still in 2 minds whether this is the right Jane Allan. The parents on the 1930 DC do not match the parents on the MC that I am confident in - John and Catherine Hannah as opposed to Robert and Jane Hannah nee Buchanan.

On the 1918 MC, her full name is Jane Buchanan Hannah so this matches well with her mother's maiden name. On her husband's DC and her son's DC she is again named as Jane Buchanan Hannah.

I just can't shake the feeling that if her mother was Catherine Boon/Bone, she would not have named her as Jane Buchanan. I can understand deatils on DCs being wrong, but MCs?

Anyway, will plug away and let youknow if I turn up anything.

Cheers again!

Jayne

MJayne · Post by **MJayne** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:25 pm

Jean,

Based on your info I have found Agnes on the 1851 census in Maybole.

She is age 4 and she is listed with her parents and siblings - younger sister Jane is only 4 months at the time. The place of birth of all family members except for Jane is Ireland so this explains why I haven't been able to find Agnes' birth on SP. I also found Agnes in the 1861 census. She is 14 and is already employed as a domestic servant by the Kennedy family of 22 Old Bridge Street, Ayr. This explains why she wasn't included with her family in the record you found. Haven't found her yet in 1871 or 1881 but will keep looking. I reckon you are right to suggest that the Robert Harbison of 30 Alloway Street in 1871 is my GGGF, Robert Allan. It more than suggests that his father's surname was Harbison but no way to confirm this though.

Do you know of any useful sites for searching Irish records? Agnes and her family appear to hail from Co Down and I would like to see if I can find them there.

Thanks so much for your help. I am a beginner at this family tree lark and appreciate all the help I have been given by your good self and the others who have responded to this and the other post I have made. I am heartily glad I hit on the link to this site from SP!!!!

Cheers!

Jayne

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:21 am

Hi Jayne

Do you know of any useful sites for searching Irish records?

We have a list of sites which may be good for Irish research here:
http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5555
Hope you find something of use.

Best wishes
Lesley