Scottish OPRs - marriage

britaw · Post by **britaw** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:50 pm

I found this record in the OPRs but don't know why this couple were rebuked. Can anyone elighten me as to why couple marrying would be rebuked?

"St. Andrews OPRs: Mary Adamson & Thomas Lindesay appeared both Sabbath last as appointed and were rebuked pro primo they are to continue their appearance. The man in the fore and the woman in the afternoon"

Thanks

Chris Paton · Post by **Chris Paton** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:32 pm

There could be any number of reasons. They may have already been married outside of the church, and may have gone to the church at some point after to have their union made legal. There were many ways you could marry in Scotland, and they did not all involve the kirk and the calling of banns - many marriages were valid, but not legal, and there is a difference. In such a case, they may have had to face the church's discipline. On the other hand, they may equally have been guilty of "antenuptial fornication", and that was enough to get most kirk session elders and ministers hot under the collar!

You should consult the kirk session records for the parish to look for earlier entries that might outline the exact reason - it does after all say "as appointed", so the case has been previously considered by the session. That should give you the answer. There will probably be subsequent entries as well of further rebukes, and then a final one stating when both were absolved of their misdemeanour. 'Pro primo' means for the first time.

Chris

WilmaM · Post by **WilmaM** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:45 pm

I did a search on the IGI and found the marriage/banns dates;

09 SEP 1736 St. Andrews And St. Leonards
05 SEP 1736 Kilconquhar, Fife
[both extracted entries]

I then did a parent search for the couple
and found that they had borne several children, the eldest of which,
Thomas, was born 1 October 1736.

So that explains the Admonition, either they had been married outwith the Established Church, as suggested. Or they were not married and were brought to book for the obvious consequenses!

Post by **paddyscar** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:54 pm

Hi Britaw and a warm welcome to TalkingScot [talkingscot]

Happy to see you've had such a quick response to your first query, and hope you'll come back often!

Frances

britaw · Post by **britaw** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:31 pm

Thanks very much to Chris Paton & WilmaM for such quick responses. Next stop the kirk sessions records, if I can find them from Reading, UK.

Thanks again.

Chris Paton · Post by **Chris Paton** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:48 pm

The original kirk session minutes for St Andrews, St Leonards are held at St Andrews University Library. The NAS website has them catalogued from 1730 to 1767 under accession number CH2/1561/3.

Whilst the originals are in Fife, a digitised copy can be viewed at the National Archives in Edinburgh, so you will either need to visit yourself, ask for a volunteer or hire a researcher who can look them up for you. For the new NAS catalogue, visit http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/

Good luck!

Chris

britaw · Post by **britaw** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:18 pm

Hi Chris

Thanks very much for taking the trouble to let me know where I should start looking. The information is really helpful. I feel a trip to Scotland coming on!

Chris Paton · Post by **Chris Paton** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:22 pm

You won't regret it!

Chris

Post by **HeatherH** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:59 pm

Hi Britaw,
You would probably find your answer in the Kirk Sessions. I have 2 with interesting info.

Date: 27 April 1810
Name: HOLDEN , Andrew
Trade:
Place:
Topic: admitted being the father of Margaret McKnight's child
Notes:
Archive Ref: CH2/537/11
Page(s): 63

and

Date: 25 July 1811
Name: HALDANE , Andrew
Trade:
Place:
Topic: irregularly married to Mary McKnight
Notes: irregular marriage
Archive Ref: CH2/537/11
Page(s): 107

In both cases the Kirk sessions state they had both appeared and been rebuked and forgiven.
Heather H

Post by **HeatherH** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:02 am

If you look at the original Kirk sessions you will find Andrew admitted being the father of Margaret McKnights baby he later married my 4th great gran her sister Mary and had 10 children. The first kirk session is him admitting to fathering Margerets baby the second to his irregular marriage to Mary. I would assume Mary and Andrew had just decided after playing house they were what is now known as common law and were brought before the kirk Lets face it other than work and sleep the Kirk was the be all end all of our rellies lives. But with all the schisms in the scottish church and 3 types of marriage outside the established church unless you were present we will never really know.
What I do know if they left Dumfries and went to Hawick Roxburgshire. Some of the 10 children were born there. Most of the later kiddies never lived and Mary died shortly after the last from TB.
A few years ago I for a gent who also had rellies in Hawick, Rox and we chatted. He said he may be down that way and have a chance to look about and see if he could find something on my rellies Andrew and Mary.
Later he told me his sister was married to the caretaker of Hawicks old cemetery.
to make a long story short .... can we really... Mary died and was buried in Hawick new Cemertery ( now old cemetery) later Andrew followed. Seems the modern caretaker my friends brother in law lives inside the gates and has the books. Mary Holden, Haldane, McKnight, McNaught etc. etc is buried in his sisters flower bed right outside the front door. Andrew just to the right a few rows past.
From Hawick the family split again going to Renfrewshire ( the branch I come from) and changes to the surname spelling finally settling on Haldane. Only for my father to want to see if the Grass was truely greener on the otherside( of the Atlantic) so here I sit in Canada.
Dumfries was very helpful in allowing me to see the original Kirk session records for free. With their help I have taken the family back to pre 1750.
Early on in my journey I met Father John Haldane in Arizona who had been doing research for over 40 years and had written a few books. He had contacted and later met with The Laird of Glen Eagles the head of the Haldanes and gotten permission to update the family history not to mention starting a DNA project whcih has established 3 differnert families of Haldane's and none of them related to me. The only link Father John ( and myself ) could find to someone looking for this same branch of Haldane's was an Iain Haldane ( also a member) and my cousin who gave me some of my earliest info and my contact to Father John ( do you feel a catch 22 goin g on here) At the beginning of June 2010 someone ( sorry not used to the new and improved Talking Scot posted they were related to Mary and Andrew. If they would like to send me another message I would gladly share my info , Certs, BMDs and census and kirk sessions. All adding up to a very interesting family.
Come to think of it we still are

.

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