Liff, Dundee

morgano · Post by **morgano** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:38 am

Hello.
Two of my ancestors, Henry Maxwell and Isabella McIntosh, were married in 1845 at Liff. The marriage is recorded in the OPR:

"This day Henry Maxwell and Isabella McIntosh both in the eastern district of this parish gave up their names to be proclaimed in order to marriage."

The same text, "both in the eastern district of this parish", is used for another marriage on the same page. In other cases, the expression "both in this parish" is employed. I don't see anyone from the west or north of the parish.

I know that Henry Maxwell was from Edinburgh, but know just about nothing else about him, other than that he was an overseer in a jute mill during his time in Dundee. Isabella took her father's name, McIntosh, at the time of her marriage and gave that as her maiden name later, but she was born out of wedlock and had previously gone by her mother's name of Fergusson/Ferguson/Fergison.

I am wondering if "the eastern district of this parish" could have been a coy way of referring to Dundee itself and if Liff was to Dundee what Gretna was to England. Isabella's father doesn't seem to have acknowledged her and Isabella was possibly not entitled in law to use the McIntosh name, although John McIntosh himself may have been already deceased by 1845. I strongly suspect that Liff may have been as far from her native Dundee as Isabella Maxwell ever travelled in her entire short life.

Does anyone know how Scottish law did stand on the question of using the natural father's surname, or whether the introduction of statutory registration in 1855 led to any change in the law?

morgano

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:02 am

Hi Morgano
I can't answer the legal quesitons. But the following:

I am wondering if "the eastern district of this parish" could have been a coy way of referring to Dundee itself and if Liff was to Dundee what Gretna was to England.

does not seem very likely to me.

Liff parish seems to have quite a complicated history as far as boundares and inclusions:

The parish contains also the Lochee and Logie suburbs of Dundee, the villages of Benvie, Invergowrie, Dargie, Muirhead of Liff, Birkhill Feus, and Backmuir, and part of the village of Milnefield Feus; and, comprehending the four ancient parishes of Liff, Logie, Invergowrie, and Benvie, is commonly designated Liff and Benvie. The original parish of Liff comprehended most of the site of Lochee; the parish of Logie comprised a portion of Dundee burgh, and was united to Liff before the middle of the 17th century; the parish of Invergowrie was annexed as early as Logie, or earlier; and the parish of Benvie was annexed in 1758. The united parish is bounded N by Auchterhouse, NE by Mains and Strathmartin, E by Dundee, S by the Firth of Tay, and W by Longforgan and Fowlis-Easter.

from the Ordnance Gazetteer of Scotland: A Survey of Scottish Topography, Statistical, Biographical and Historical, edited by Francis H. Groome and originally published in parts by Thomas C. Jack, Grange Publishing Works, Edinburgh between 1882 and 1885.
...and good for you if you managed to follow the rearrangements!

Here it is on a map:
http://www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-angus.htm

I wonder, given the several reorganisaitons of the parish if there were perhaps more than one COS church in the parish of Liff; the parish church and Lochee Church, and maybe that explains the reference to the Eastern District? Perhaps a look at the Statistical Accounts which mentions these two churches, if you have not done so already, may give some clues? http://edina.ac.uk/stat-acc-scot/

My guess would be that the Eastern District refers to the Lochee part of the parish.

Best wishes
Lesley

morgano · Post by **morgano** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:42 am

Thanks, that does sound like a more plausible explanation.

Post by **AndrewP** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:45 am

In the 1841 census, the united parishes of Liff, Benvie and Invergowrie were enumerated in thirteen districts:

Liff & Benvie, Angus (landward) - 4 enumeration districts
Liff & Benvie, Angus (Dundee Burgh) - 6 enumeration districts
Invergowrie, Perthshire - 1 enumeration district

I agree with Lesley that I would expect the eastmost part to be the part within Dundee Burgh. The landward part of Liff & Benvie should be the central part and Invergowrie the westmost part (across the county boundary).

All the best,

AndrewP

morgano · Post by **morgano** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:13 am

Thank you.

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:20 am

Hi Morgano

Does anyone know how Scottish law did stand on the question of using the natural father's surname, or whether the introduction of statutory registration in 1855 led to any change in the law?

Coming back to this quesiton: yes, the introduction of Statutory Registration did lead to a change in the law - it was now a legal requirement to register births, marriages and deaths, whereas there was no legal requirement to do so prior to this date. With regard to children born to parents who were not married, after 1855 as far as I remember the father would need to go along with the mother to register the birth in order to have his name on the birth entry. Prior to 1855 the birth, if registered, would be likely to be listed in the OPR under the mother's surname in most cases I think, but I'll bet there were exceptions to this.

However, in all cases, what you are registered as , in an OPR or SR document, and what you are known as may be two different things, so a child may be registered in his mother's surname but later turn up (in a census or other document) using his father's surname.

I'm sure others will be able to add more to this!

Best wishes
Lesley

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:18 am

Hello Morgano,

I can’t really add to what Lesley has said but I can give you a copy of the 1854 Legislation which is only 28 pages (258-286) in this Google Book and spells it all out quite well. (see vicinity of p.269.)

“An Act to provide for the better Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages in Scotland.” http://books.google.com.au/books?id=YM0 ... J&pg=PA258

It includes sample Register pages with instructions as to completion and the form of various declarations to be made by parents, medical men, undertakers etc.

Google books are much easier read if downloaded although this one isn’t too bad.

Hope this helps,
Alan

morgano · Post by **morgano** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:00 am

However, in all cases, what you are registered as , in an OPR or SR document, and what you are known as may be two different things, so a child may be registered in his mother's surname but later turn up (in a census or other document) using his father's surname.

Yes, good point. I am also aware of a case where the first name recorded for a birth was not the formal form, but the diminutive version. When the person in question reached adulthood, she always gave the full version of the name. Unless she ever had occasion to consult her birth certificate, I doubt if she knew that she had been registered officially under the shortened name. That was south of the border, by the way, so I don't know if the same could happen in Scotland.

I can give you a copy of the 1854 Legislation...

Many thanks for this link. I'll follow it up right away.

Morgano

Post by **AnneM** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:24 pm

Hi Morgano

In Scotland you can all yourself whatever you like provided there is no fraudulent intent so the woman was at liberty to call herself Ferguson or McIntosh or for that matter McHaggis if she wanted.

Quite often I've come across children who were registered in their mother's name as there was no sign of father at the registration but thereafter always known by their father's.

Anne