Second Cousin Conundrum

[Moray_Lass]

Since I know you like a Conundrum... Can anyone see anything I have missed to solve this?

This is convoluted so bare with me. And apologies for the info dump.

My gg grandmother's twin sister, Margaret Thomson, married a second cousin, John Findlay - says so on her 1865 marriage certificate. At the time I found this I was jumping for joy as my 3xg grandmother, Mary Lobban, was a brick wall; no OPR birth, no Death Certificate for 1877. So I traced back John to find the connection and found his mother's mother was Elizabeth Laing. My 'likely candidate' for 4xg grandmother was Isabella Laing, married to Robert Loban (sic). But I couldn't make the connection between the two Laing woman and close the likely circle.

Time rolls on and just after joining TS I got Isabella Laing's 1855 death certificate on a gamble because three of Mary Lobban's children OPR births had the same names as witnesses as three Loban daughters. Mary was a daughter of Isabella on the 1855 DC, but I still can't make the connection between Elizabeth Laing and Isabella Laing to explain the second cousin marriage. To add to the frustration the first four of Isabella's children on her death certificate have no OPR that I can find, Isabella doesn't appear to have an OPR either and Robert Loban's marriage lines are to a *Jane* Laing, who has no OPR either.

Now the facts and figures.

Isabella Laing
parents Isabella Dick and James Laing (Death Certificate)
b c1773 Dundurcas parish (1851 census & Moray LibIndx)
m 31 Aug 1794 Boharm, 'Jane' Laing to Robert Loban
d 19 Feb 1855 Bellie
first 5 children born in Boharm then move to Bellie (about 6 miles) 4 more children Bellie/Speymouth

Elizabeth Laing
b ?
m 2 Aug 1807 Boharm, to George Innes
d 9 Jan 1815 Child birth (Bellie OPR & Moray LibIndx)
first child born in Boharm then moved to Bellie for 3 more

James Laing
parents Isabella Dick and James Laing (Moray LibIndx & OPR)
b 28 Feb 1779 Boharm
m 19 Nov 1815 Grange, to Helen Robertson
d 2 Aug 1853 Grange
all children born in Grange or Gamrie

Mary's sister, Elizabeth Lobban, 1804 Boharm OPR birth has witnesses John Laing & Elizabeth Laing.


Dundurcas is one of those parishes that got divided up and disappeared, half went to Boharm and half to Rothes in 1788 (Genuki). Mary Lobban put on her Poor Relief Application in 1866 that she was born in Burghnamary, Boharm. So it is possible that Isabella came from the Boharm part of Dundurcas. Either way I have read through the Dundurcas, Boharm & Rothes OPRs and can't find either Laing girls birth, but James Laing was born in Lackdhu, Boharm, a few miles from Burghnamary.


Circumstancial evidence - Twins run in families?

Isabella Loban (nee Laing) had twins Mary and Isabella Lobban c1801
Elizabeth Innes (nee Laing) had twins Adam and George Innes 9 Jan 1815

I know making this connection isn't vital to my research but it annoys me.

[Currie]

Hello Maggie,

No-one seems to be too interested in conundrums at the moment, it must be either too hot or too cold. I’ll just do some beating around the bush.

How can you verify that Margaret Thomson is the second cousin of John Findlay. To do that you would have to prove that the Isabella Laing who married Mr Loban is the sister of the Elizabeth Laing who was the grandmother of John Findlay. I think it should be safe enough to take their word for it as we Genealogists generally only question certificate information when some conflicting information comes to light.

To be second cousins Margaret Thomson and John Findlay would have had a set of great grandparent as common ancestors. Each individual usually has 4 sets of great grandparents and may have second cousins from any combination of descendency from the two sets of 4.

Without thinking about it too carefully maybe that’s from 16 possible combinations. To know if you are currently looking at the only possible combination you would have to know the surname including maiden name of all of John Finlay’s and Margaret Thomson’s grandparents. If you think that the possible Laing sisters, Elizabeth and Isabella are the only possibles out of the 16 then I think you could safely create a person on your tree called Mr Laing with those two as his daughters and complete the circle that way.

If you suspect such a thing but have doubts there’s no harm in creating a Mr Laing??? Or whatever to join the circle and put the whole thing on the backburner until later when more records may become available. I would probably do something like that myself although I don’t know what the purists would think. You’re certainly gathering the goods together nicely but I’m not sure you’re quite there yet. Someone else may have some better ideas.

If any of the above doesn’t make sense it’s probably because I got lost somewhere along the line. (I already have a bad feeling about that).

All the best and good luck,
Alan

[Montrose Budie]

Alan's right about the numbers.

But however much it appears that the connection that you have found is the correct one you need to be be able to eliminate all the other possible derivations for the couple to be second cousins. In a rural area like Bellie there would be lots of intermarriage over the generations just to complicate matters.

The requirement to show such a relationship on a Marriage Register entry countinued into the first couple of decades of the 1900s.

mb

[Moray_Lass]

Thanks for replying Alan and Mb

When I first started I went off on a wild goose chase on the wrong people, so I tend to like everything cross references now so I am certain. You are probably right that I can take their word for it, especially as I now know that Mary Lobban is the daughter of Isabella Laing - which I didn't initially.

The Laings are the only connection that I can see, but I would like a little bit of paper to prove it

Margaret Thomson grandparents are:
Alexander Thomson & Janet Davidson
Robert Loban & Isabella Laing

John Findlay's grandparents are:
William Finlay & Margaret Geddes
George Innes & Elizabeth Laing

And yes, inter-breeding isn't rare here - I have two Thomson brothers marrying two Davidson sisters, and a nephew marrying an aunt that I need confirming

This is just something I keep coming back to worrying away at, until I can get down to NAS again and do some more Kirk Session searches to find fathers.

Thanks for looking at it