Puzzled by OPR wording... "fallen pledge"

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LesleyB
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Puzzled by OPR wording... "fallen pledge"

Post by LesleyB » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:45 pm

Hi all
Isobel Preston was married around 1736, Kettle area, Fife (not been able to find a record of the marriage). Her second male child is John born 1739, her first female child is Euphan, born 1742 , so you might expect her parents to be John Preston and Euphan Someone. (Euphan/Eupham is an old form of a name from the same root as Euphemia as far as I remember)

There is a birth of an Isobel Preston registered in Cupar on August 4th 1712 "Daughter to John Preston at Cults", so in the right area at about the right time, but no mother mentioned, as is typical of Cupar OPR around this date.

A search for a marriage of a John Preston to a Euphan Someone produces two likely matches:
26/08/1715 PRESTON JOHN EUPHAM CURRER/FR297 1226 M Kettle /FIFE 435/ 0010 0297
26/08/1715 PRESTON JOHN EUPHAN CURRER/ M Markinch /FIFE 447/ 0010
and checking them they are both the same couple: John was from Markinch and Euphan from Kettle. Only problem is that the marriage happened in 1715, three years after the birth of Isobel...
...but, then I thought either that they are the wrong John & Euphan OR that perhaps Isobel's mother may have died, maybe in childbirth, father John goes on to marry Euphan a couple of years later, and Euphan then brings up young Isobel and Isobel regards her as her mother..
(The Euphan and John who married in 1715 appear to have had two children at least: Janet 1717, Thomas 1719, both born Markinch. In the Fife death index, there looks to be another child who died as a baby in 1716 and it looks like Euphan herself died in 1721, aged 34)

However, looking for that possible first marriage for John Preston on SP produced:
30/12/1711 PRESTON JOHN NAME NOT GIVEN//FR1206 M Kettle /FIFE 435/ 0040 0068
The "marriage" is on a page of accounts which include the takings from collections at church, monies brought in by the elders, income from mortcloths etc.
When it comes to John Preston the wording is:

John Prestons fallen pledge 003--00--00

So looks like he paid three pounds. But the strangest thing is that the name above his is:
Eupham Curriers fallen pledge 003--00--00
which seems very odd. A late 1711 marriage would fit beautifully even if it does mean Euphan Currier was about 7-8 weeks pregnant on the day! - but I'm not understanding just exactly what is meant by "fallen pledge" (given too that there appear to be a couple of other mentions of these on the page of a Thomas Lumsdean and a Catharin Robs but they are not mentioned together but on different days) There is no Kirk Session available for Kettle at this time or that would be my first port of call!
And why, if "fallen pledges" indicate a marriage are a couple of the same names, with a Euphan also from Kettle, getting married 4 years later?? :?
Puzzled.... any light shedding welcomed, especially if you are familiar with "fallen pledges"!!

Best wishes
Lesley

paddyscar
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Post by paddyscar » Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:01 pm

Hi Lesley:

Another country, another time, another meaning? ... but I remember when our church had burned to the ground and 'pledges' were sought to rebuild. These pledges were not considered to be part of the regular Sunday collections. Each week there was a list of pledges and the amount, and whether or not they were honoured.

But you're seeking confirmation of 'pledge thee my troth'?
Frances

LesleyB
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Post by LesleyB » Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:04 pm

Hi Frances
But you're seeking confirmation of 'pledge thee my troth'?
SP have it listed as a marriage for John Preston. They obviously know something I don't!! :lol:

Best wishes
Lesley

AnneM
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Post by AnneM » Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:32 pm

Hi

Do you think it could mean a projected marriage that for one reason or another did not take place and attracted a fine. Maybe your couple contracted to marry, did not do so, had a child and then a few years later tied the knot in the eyes of the kirk!

How about this? They contract to marry. They fall out and don't do so. She finds she is pregnant, in those days I guess you might not know at 7 to 8 weeks, no reliable tests after all, They are still not speaking. She has the child. A couple of years later they reconcile and marry.

Or even she finds she is pregnant to someone else and accordingly they don't marry. A few years later they get back together, he forgives her. They marry and bring up little daughter together though she is not Daddy's natural child.

Anne

Ok I know it's all speculation but why let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Anne
Anne
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AnneM
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Post by AnneM » Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:46 pm

There is an Isobel Currer born in 1712 in Kettle to a David Currer. Do you think she could have been a cousin. Maybe the mother of David and Euphan was called Isobel.

Anne
Anne
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters

LesleyB
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Post by LesleyB » Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:59 pm

Hi Anne
I'd noted a David Currer appears to be an elder on that same OPR page - may well be the same one as Kettle is not a very large parish. The Fife death index suggests there were quite a lot of them around in the area, even though it is not a surname I've heard much these days. Currier appears to be the preferred spelling in the death index for the Kettle/Cupar area.

Of your options above I'd go for the first one if pushed! But, in that case, I'm sure the 1712 birth of isobel would have been listed under Eupham's name, not John Preston's, probably with the usual comment about the situation!!

Hmm... wait a minute - I wonder if you had contracted to marry.."pledged" and then you went and got pregnant.. would that count as a "fallen pledge"? But, as you say, you may not have been sure about the pregnancy at that early stage.

I wonder if I'm reading too much into "fallen" - maybe it just means that payment had "fallen" due on that day? But SP have it listed as a marriage, so still puzzled about the wording and why Euphan is in the line above. It might be pure coincidence - but its an awfully big one!

Best wishes
Lesley

LesleyB
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Post by LesleyB » Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:40 am

Maybe the mother of David and Euphan was called Isobel.
This looks like it might be the Euphan who died in 1721, aged 34:
IGI (extract):
  • EUPHAMA CURRIER
    Christening: 26 MAR 1686 Kettle, Fife, Scotland
    Parents:
    Father: JOHN CURRIER
But no mother... :roll:

LesleyB
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Post by LesleyB » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:58 pm

Mystery solved -well partly. The "fallen pledges" relate to a bit of er... recreation!

I missed the blinkin' obvious (not for the first time!) Kettle Kirk Session does exist for that period, but for some reason when I was checking on the NAS catalogue it did not show up for those dates, or maybe it did & I just didn't notice...anything is possible! :lol:

Anyway, the Kirk Session spells it out - there had been a rumour in the parish that Euphan Currer was guilty of fornication with one John Preston. Both were called before the session and confessed to said deed on the night of Hallomas (which must be Hallowe'en as 1st November is also mentioned)
Both have to appear on the stool of repentance to be rebuked in public three times and both were absolved at the end of December - the same time those payments appear in the OPR, no doubt for associated fines. The other two people I mentioned whose names appeared were also up for the same misdemeanor, :shock: but were listed on different days as they had appeared for rebuking on different days and so been absolved on differing dates.

The phrase "when he fell with that woman" is used of the other man, so it looks like the pledge is to do with staying pure before marriage and if you "slip up" you have a "fallen pledge" on your hands/conscience, and eating up your Christmas money :lol:

SP seems to not quite have it right about it being a marriage, but I'm glad they popped that one in or I might have missed it otherwise.

Which only leaves that birth on 4th August 1712 of a daughter to John Preston at Cults - date given by the couple themselves suggest the birth may be the result of the er...Hallowe'en celebration. :lol:

They may well be the couple who married several years later. Back in those days people did not tend to marry unless they were able to live independently and had the means to support themselves and a wife (and the inevitable children), so maybe they just had to wait a few years to tie the knot?

StewL
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Post by StewL » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:38 am

Lesley

Whenever I read about the "goings on" from OPR Kirk sessions etc, and the miscreants having to sit on the repentence stool in the Kirk. I laugh my head off thinking about what they would think about todays goings on. :lol:

They wouldnt all be able to sit on the repentence stool, the kirk would have to use a football stadium for all the sinners about :lol: :lol: And even then they would be lined up around the block, waiting for their turn to get in. :lol: :lol:
Stewie

Searching for: Anderson, Balks, Barton, Courtney, Davidson, Downie, Dunlop, Edward, Flucker, Galloway, Graham, Guthrie, Higgins, Laurie, Mathieson, McLean, McLuckie, Miln, Nielson, Payne, Phillips, Porterfield, Stewart, Watson

joette
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Post by joette » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:22 am

Yep too true "Holy Willie" comes to mind although maybe it did offer some social control.No police force,no social services & most folk no access to legal resources.
When I see some miscreants today I think a few hours on the repentant stool would do them little harm!
May I add that my poor Granny was made to sit on the "stool" in the 1900's.Hence why her family up sticks from the local Church & went "up" the road to another.
I think it was more of confessing her sin to the congregation.Funnilly enough the Father of her child was not offered the same opportunity.
Researching:SCOTT,Taylor,Young,VEITCH LINLEY,MIDLOTHIAN
WADDELL,ROSS,TORRANCE,GOVAN/DALMUIR/Clackmanannshire
CARR/LEITCH-Scotland,Ireland(County Donegal)
LINLEY/VEITCH-SASK.Canada
ALSO BROWN,MCKIMMIE,MCDOWALL,FRASER.
Greer/Grier,Jenkins/Jankins