Why would children be detained from baptism?

JulieD · Post by **JulieD** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:45 am

Hello everyone

My interest is the FRAME family.

I have been struggling to decipher old handwriting on a 1701 baptism record

(644/001 0080 0076)

for a group of four children belonging to James Frame and Jean Armour for some time now. A number of genies have helped, and we think we have most of it, but one crucial word remains elusive, and that seems to be the reason the children were detained from baptism. Here is what we believe it reads so far:

10 Jan 1701

James Frame in Flemingtonne and Jean Armor had four lawful children baptised that day who ( ?now or were) come to som(e) years and detained hitherto(o) from Baptisme be reason of the parents ____ (?which) by the blessing
of God upon the patient Christian endeavours of your
minister Mr James Browne were removed.
the childrens names are James, John, Jonet , &
Margarit. wit.(nesses) John Frame and Robert
Corsbie.
12 January

Would anyone have a suggestion for the reason ?
Would anyone know if information on this matter would be available in the kirk sessions minute book, and if I would be able to access it online please?

Post by **marilyn morning** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:11 am

Hi Julie,

Welcome to TalkingScot!

It might be helpful to post an image of the document in our gallery. Here's some instructions on how to

http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6496

Regards
Marilyn

JulieD · Post by **JulieD** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:30 am

Hi Marilyn

Thanks for the advice. I have posted a copy of the document to the Gallery.

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1292

Gallery url added by Marilyn

DavidWW · Post by **DavidWW** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:34 am

I can think of several words such as censure and admonition that would fit the context but they don't fit here!

Watch out for all those marks above this mystery word (is it a single word....?) which probably mean abbreviations..........

David

JulieD · Post by **JulieD** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:07 am

David, thank you. Perhaps it is more than one word then. It is surely a tricky one!

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:14 am

Hi Julie
...and welcome to Talking Scot

Would anyone know if information on this matter would be available in the kirk sessions minute book, and if I would be able to access it online please?

Most of the Kirk Session records are held at NAS in Edinburgh, either in original form or with a great number of them now, including some Kirk Session minutes which are stored elsewhere, as digital images on the PCs at NAS.
http://www.nas.gov.uk/
You can search the catalogue here:
http://www.dswebhosting.info/NAS/dserve ... Search.tcl
I would think that a matter of this sort may well turn up in the Kirk Session minutes at some point, if minutes exist for Glasgow at this period (sorry, not had time to check what years Glasgow Kirk Session is available this morning - should be there in the NAS catalogue). There are plans to put the Kirk Session material online, but they are not available yet.

Best wishes
Lesley

JulieD · Post by **JulieD** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:45 am

Lesley,

Thank you for the advice. I think the records would be in the following file, however I could not get at any further details. Anyway, a bit far from home for me! I will possibly have to see if I can get a researcher in Scotland I think. I am not even sure if these are the Frames I am after. I am trying to locate the birth of the James Frame who became the patriarch of the Virginia and West Virginia Frame families in the hope of clearing up a dilemma with what appears to be an erroneous but widely circulated pedigree. We know by genetic testing that the WV Frames are tightly related to my Scottish Frames in the late 1600s, however, the problem is finding the correct James Frame's birth or baptism!

Thanks again for your response.

Record: 1 of 1
RefNo Title Date
CH2 Records of Church of Scotland synods, presbyteries and kirk sessions 1569-1998

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CountryCode GB
RepCode 234
RefNo CH2/303
Repository National Archives of Scotland
Title Port Glasgow Kirk Session, Old
Date 1697-1945
AccessStatus Open

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:00 pm

Could some of it say 'objections'? As in, the children were not baptised because of their parents' objections. It makes contextual sense, and although the first four letters say something else, to me the last part looks like the word 'objections'.

Nina

JulieD · Post by **JulieD** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:13 pm

Hello Nina

You may be right...I am truly not sure...I have been going blind trying to figure this one out! I suspected the first few letters were 'stri'...but maybe 'strong objections' ? I had wondered about 'suffering' also...because these Frames, I believe, were somewhere near Cadder/Calder where the Covenanter William Frame who was sent to Barbados came from (from memory ?1679). A story passed down one of the West Virginia Frame lines is that James Frame fled persecution and he actually went/was sent to Ireland before ending up in the U.S.

DavidWW · Post by **DavidWW** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:48 pm

JulieD wrote:David, thank you. Perhaps it is more than one word then. It is surely a tricky one!

I'm 99% certain that last letter is a Secretary Hand "e", see http://www.scottishhandwriting.com/cont ... age=s3_1_2 , and I've a few ideas about other individual letters, but I just cannot connect with a word or words that fit the context.

That written, I'm no Secretary Hand expert

, and look forward to seeing the opinion of a real expert

David

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