Gene Detectives

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DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:12 pm

One of the things that annoys me is the terminology, and the very title itself of "Gene Detectives".

We all have 24 chromosomes. Each chromosome contains numerous genes, some "expressed" i.e. dominant, some not, so-called recessive.

DNA testing as it is now known has nowt to do with genes. What various DNA tests do is to look at the parts of the DNA molecule of the chromosomes outside the genes. In these areas there are, every so often, groups of repeated atoms in the DNA molecule, known as short tandem repeats.

In any one such location or "marker" in the DNA molecule, you might have, say, 7 repeats, but I might only have 4. If a decent number of the STRs are the same, then there's a probability of common ancestry sometime way back.

The basic number of markers for the male Y chromosome test is only 10, but such a low number involves an error in terms of the situation where, say, 7 of 10, match with someone else. This is known as "confidence limits", normally expressed as a percentage, e.g. that 10 marker match might be expressed as 95% confidence limits which means that there is a 5% chance that the match is actually a false positive (it gets even more complicated than that as there as associated errors and therefore confidence limits connected with the analytical techniques involved, but let's not get into that ! :roll: )

The higher the number of markers tested the more accurate will be the results, and the higher the confidence limits that the answer is correct.

This ain't an easy field in terms of the science involved, and the associated need to have an understanding of some fairly sosphisticated statistical aspects. There's no real "DNA testing for Dummies" that IK know of, but http://blairgenealogy.com/dna/dna101.html comes close.

There is another form of DNA, in all of our cells, apart from blood cells, known as mitochodrial DNA, mtDNA for short. This is inherited from the mother.

In the case of the Y chromosome DNA and mtDNA, mutations take place verytime and generations. The average rates of such mutations are reasonably well known, so that, given any two DNA test results, it's possible to derive a figure for the number of generations since the most recent common ancestor. BTW mtDNA mutates more slowly than Y chromosome DNA.

I can appreciate that to give such an explanation of Gene Detectives may not have been appropriate for a morning TV show, but something should have been attempted, with at very least repeated warnings about drawing conclusions.

Incidentally, this idea that "you" come from a certain region is only correct if it is expressed, as was the case in another previous programme, along the lines of "your ancestry appears to be 60% from region A, 30% fromregion B, with a soupcon of 10% from region C"!.......

The scientific method is not that straightforward to understand if you don't have the advantage of the associated education, together with a bent for such subjects and interest in them. See after my signature for an interesting situation !!

What has totally inflamed me about the Gene Detectives programme has been that very strong suggestion, or at least implication, that photographs i.e. physical appearance, voices, physical quirks such a tongue bending and tongue nose touching, as well as general health characteristics can be a valuable tool in seeking relatives.

I'm in no way denying that any of these aspects can be fascinating in terms of adding to the situation, but there's no way at all that they should be used as research criteria.

The nature of human reproduction is such that chromosomes, and therefore genes, get shuffled about. Yes, it's quite possible that you are the spitting image of your father, or maybe uncle Jimmy (which, of course, in genealogical research terms can raise a warning flag :!: :wink: ), but the fact that you are not the spitting image of your father or uncle Jimmy is equally likely in terms of how the genes get shuffled, and various genes change from dominant to recessive, and the reverse.

David


An Interesting Situation

You're out on a walk.

Part of the walk takes you across a golf course.

As you approach the fairway on one hole, you see that a foursome are about to drive off from the tee, and stand back at the side of the fairway.

One of the drives lands only a few feet away from you.

You muse "Hmmmmmm..... the chances of the golf ball landing on that blade of grass must be at least several million to one; therefore the golfer must have aimed at that particular blade of grass".

So where's the logical fallacy in this argument?


dww
Last edited by DavidWW on Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

emanday
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Post by emanday » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:30 pm

Had to read that a few times, and will be reading it again, before I will come anywhere close to really understanding it. Not because of the way you explained it, David, but because it seems to be far more complicated than TV shows, etc... lead us to believe.

As I understand it, this is still a very young science and new discoveries are being made all the time, but...

Is it still true that, for DNA testing, they CAN say who you are NOT related to, but will only give a probability of who you MIGHT be related to?
[b]Mary[/b]
A cat leaves pawprints on your heart
McDonald or MacDonald (some couldn't make up their mind!), Bonner, Crichton, McKillop, Campbell, Cameron, Gitrig (+other spellings), Clark, Sloan, Stewart, McCutcheon, Ireland (the surname)

DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:38 pm

Hi Mary
emanday wrote:Had to read that a few times, and will be reading it again, before I will come anywhere close to really understanding it. Not because of the way you explained it, David, but because it seems to be far more complicated than TV shows, etc... lead us to believe.
Very much more complicated indeed !! All that TV shows want is "simplicity", and, I'm afraid, this area can't offer such required simplicity :!: :cry:
emanday wrote:As I understand it, this is still a very young science and new discoveries are being made all the time, but...
Very much so !!
emanday wrote:Is it still true that, for DNA testing, they CAN say who you are NOT related to, but will only give a probability of who you MIGHT be related to?
That's a rather neat summary of the whole situation !!

David

joette
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Post by joette » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:42 pm

I have been involved in a DNA testing thingy in connection with my McKimmie line.
It cost me nix & all I had to do was provide a saliva sample & a four Generation Chart.I will not know the results in particular but it may help to determine the Genetic spread of a particular strand of DNA in relation to surname spread.I just find DNA fascinating & genetic inheritance ditto.
I remember seeing a few episodes of "Family Ties" including the one of the SS connection which having a relation through marriage a SS officer of the worst ilk was doubly interesting & I think most folk would prefer this to celebrities having free advice when they can in the main afford to fund it themselves.
Researching:SCOTT,Taylor,Young,VEITCH LINLEY,MIDLOTHIAN
WADDELL,ROSS,TORRANCE,GOVAN/DALMUIR/Clackmanannshire
CARR/LEITCH-Scotland,Ireland(County Donegal)
LINLEY/VEITCH-SASK.Canada
ALSO BROWN,MCKIMMIE,MCDOWALL,FRASER.
Greer/Grier,Jenkins/Jankins

SarahND
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Post by SarahND » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:54 pm

emanday wrote:Is it still true that, for DNA testing, they CAN say who you are NOT related to, but will only give a probability of who you MIGHT be related to?
This is similar to the situation with so called "voice prints," spectrograms of a person's voice that popular culture would have you believe are as unique as fingerprints. Members of our phonetics laboratory were always being called in as expert witnessness in court, to "prove" that the voice, say, left on someone's answering machine, "could be no other than that of the defendant," etc. Not so. You can say with reasonable certainty that a spectrogram is NOT someone's voice, but never that it MUST BE their voice. At least not with enough certainty to convict someone on that evidence.

Regards,
Sarah

Chris Paton
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Post by Chris Paton » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:34 pm

marilyn morning wrote:
We are heading toward the position American TV has been at for years -Wall to Wall, 24 hour garbage with absolutely no intellectual content interspersed with adverts,
Hi Russell,

I'm not the great defender of American TV, but

Quit picking on us. :lol:

Regards
Marilyn
You know, my favourite shows on the box just now are Ugly Betty, Battlestar Galactica, Lost and 24. Only two British shows are on the must see list - Dragon's Den, BBC2, and Grand Designs on C4. I think the Americans have finally trumped us...! :D

Chris
Tha an lasair nad anam aig meadhan do bhith
Nas làidir 's nas motha na riaghaltas no rìgh.

AnneM
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Post by AnneM » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:15 pm

Frasier rocked!! Couldn't miss it and was a fan of Ally McBeal too. I seem to remember LA Law as being fun as well. The only decent law based programme on British telly ever was Rumpole. All the others are nonsensical stuff.

When I was away in Sri Lanka for 6 weeks the only telly I saw was the one day cricket from India (Yawn) and the World Service News. I've therefore discovered that all the programmes which were, I believed, essential for my well being are, in fact, fairly tedious.

Anne
Anne
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters

Montrose Budie
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Post by Montrose Budie » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:56 pm

Chris Paton wrote:.....snipped..........

Prior to WDYTYA first coming out, there was a Nations and Regions drive at the BBC to come up with a format involving genealogy that would involve the whole of the UK, with production input from all four countries. We had all sorts of ideas that would look at real people's stories, but it was never to happen, as we suddenly all learned that Wall to Wall had inexplicably gained the contract. The BBC did not feel comfortable enough with a format that did not feature celebrities - after all, every show today has to be about celebrities. It's part of the lazy approach to programme making these days. Ironically, the BBC did commission another show for BBC4 - "Family Ties" - in conjunction with the OU, which dealt with the stories of ordinary people, often on extremely emotional topics, such as the British man who was stunned to find that his father had been in the SS. But it was hidden away on BBC4, a minority channel that most people did not watch at that time. The BBC no longer has faith in ordinary people being able to explore their own stories on mainstream channels, and now has to "sex up" any remotely interesting idea with a gimmick.
While BBC Radio Scotland's "Digging Up Your Roots" didn't feature celebrities, the excitement on the part of the producer and editors when a celebrity could be connected into a situation had to be experienced to be believed!" :cry:
Chris Paton wrote:I doubt it will happen though. I fear the next big genealogy series is going to be "Contact the Dead" - a six part series where a psychic medium communicates with spirits beyond the grave to solve untold stories from the past.... with celebrities, an army of DNA doctors, and a man standing ready with an 18th C horse drawn plough to re-enact how the spook died in the first place...! :)

Chris
Sadly and probably true in terms of BBC TV, but BBC Radio are quietly working away in other directions, - witness "Digging Up Your Roots" above, with a second series promised, and Sally Magnusson's new BBC Radio Scotland programme, to be broadcast nationwide on Radio 4 ....

See http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/progin ... /mon.shtml and scroll down a bit.

QUOTE
Tracing Your Roots Ep 1/6
Monday 12 March
4.30-5.00pm BBC RADIO 4

Sally Magnusson presents a new genealogy series, giving listeners ideas for tracing their family history and delving into their ancestors' lives and times. ....much snipped ...................

ENDQUOTE

Incidentally it was BBC Radio Scotland Aberdeen, the producers of "Digging Up Your Roots" who put forward the proposal for this network programme. The co-producer, Rhona Brudenell would have been the sole producer had not the response to BBC Radio Scotland's "Digging Up Your Roots" been so overwhelming, - I'm assured that there have been very few programmes in recent times that have generated such levels of listener interest in terms of not just queries to the programme experts, but also many, many contacts via phone, email, and letter, along the lines of "great programme, let's please have more of the same", etc., etc., without any request for such reactions.

David (posting as Montrose Budie)

Chris Paton
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Post by Chris Paton » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:03 pm

I agree actually, BBC Radio and BBC Television are two very different beasts, and I still have a hell of a lot of respect for the Beeb's radio output, and incidentally, a lot of their online content also. "Digging up Your Roots" was a good listen, hopefully Sally's show will be too, though if I had one minor criticism, I would suggest they try to get away at some point from shows about the processes of genealogy, and go more for the amazing stories that have been revealed. But at least the shows are intelligent, and if returned aftera first run could certainly go more down those routes.

The advantage with Radio 4 and Radio Scotland are that they really don't have competitors working against them, and have very specific audiences. BBC TV is too busy trying to compete with Sky, C4 and ITV, and no longer has a unique selling point, imo. So whilst "Gene Detectives" plays out on a Thursday morning on BBC1, turn to the radio at the same time and you can listen to Melvyn Bragg's "In Our Time". One treats the audience with a degree of intelligence; the other uses facial profiling...! :)

Chris
Tha an lasair nad anam aig meadhan do bhith
Nas làidir 's nas motha na riaghaltas no rìgh.

DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:11 pm

Chris Paton wrote:.....snipped ....................
The advantage with Radio 4 and Radio Scotland are that they really don't have competitors working against them, and have very specific audiences. BBC TV is too busy trying to compete with Sky, C4 and ITV, and no longer has a unique selling point, imo. So whilst "Gene Detectives" plays out on a Thursday morning on BBC1, turn to the radio at the same time and you can listen to Melvyn Bragg's "In Our Time". One treats the audience with a degree of intelligence; the other uses facial profiling...! :)

Chris
Say no more :!: :!: [5 cups]

David