Searching Records -Soundex- Fraser /Frazer

Parish Records and other sources

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Gingerbadcat
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Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:25 pm

Searching Records -Soundex- Fraser /Frazer

Post by Gingerbadcat » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:30 pm

Just thought I'd warn anyone who has names like Fraser...... ticking Soundex does not produce any Frazers..... ! :o I'd written off some of this family as seceders or dodgy entries on IGI -you know the ones but no ! Took off soundex and typed in a z and Bob is your proverbial (three times now !!)

I teach English as a foreign language and they certainly sound very similar to me ! :D
Annie
Interested in Fraser, Harrower,Begbie, Rutherfoord, Foord, Dudgeon in Midlothian and East Lothian.
Boag Sim McDermid in Dunning and Perthshire,Glasgow
Hughes Grahams Frize McCormick Dumbartonshire.

SarahND
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Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 am
Location: France

Post by SarahND » Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:16 pm

Hi,
Soundex doesn't work like a human ear, unfortunately! I have had reason to rant about it many times in the past :roll: I, too, have Frasers and have tried fra?er or, better, fra*r which catches the Fraziers that sometimes pop up.

All the best,
Sarah

karenmcc
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:53 am
Location: australia

Post by karenmcc » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:27 am

Hi Annie and Sarah,

This is something I have been wondering about for a while now. How does Soundex work Sarah? Why do I get McMillans turn up when I search for McKinlays?

Karen
Lochiel, McKinlay, McGibbon/McCubbin, Cunningham, McDougall, Burnside - Lanarkshire->Ayrshire.
Hay, Hannah, - Kirkcudbright.
McIntosh, McQuaters/McWatters, White, - Kilmarnock
Murdoch, Hope, McMillan - Muirkirk

SarahND
Site Admin
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Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 am
Location: France

Post by SarahND » Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:10 am

Hi Karen,
You can have a look at the Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundex

Basically, Soundex
-discounts the vowels (which makes sense, because vowels vary all over the map from one region to another)
-uses the initial letter as an obligatory presence (annoying, because it is often the illegible fancy capital letters at the beginning that get mis-transcribed)
-assigns a numerical value to the remaining consonants supposedly according to their phonetic similarity (I would argue very strongly against the grouping, which doesn't take into account many ways sounds are known to vary-- just look at group 2, which basically includes everything but the kitchen sink...)
-the initial letter and the first three letter codes are what Soundex looks at. Two adjacent identical numbers are collapsed into one.

So...
Mcmillan > M254
M- initial letter
c-2
m-5
l-4

Mckinlay > M254
M- initial letter
c-2
k-2
n-5
l-4
The adjacent 2's become just one 2

In this case I would argue that Mc is just a prefix and the actual surname starts with the following letter. The "initial" K in (Mc)Kinley should not have been permitted to collapse into the final c of Mc.

I looked for years to find my great grandmother in the 1850 census. They were indexed as Shelman, instead of Sherman :roll: You can see how they would have different Soundex codes, since r and l have different numbers. This, although there are many many languages of the world that don't make a difference between the two sounds :roll:

That said, according to the system Fraser and Frazer should be the same Soundex code... so I don't understand what was happening with Annie's search! Sounds like the Soundex is not even following its own rules!

All the best,
Sarah

karenmcc
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:53 am
Location: australia

Post by karenmcc » Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:23 am

Thanks for the explanation Sarah. It wouldn't be so bad as both names are in my direct lines, only different areas.

Karen
Lochiel, McKinlay, McGibbon/McCubbin, Cunningham, McDougall, Burnside - Lanarkshire->Ayrshire.
Hay, Hannah, - Kirkcudbright.
McIntosh, McQuaters/McWatters, White, - Kilmarnock
Murdoch, Hope, McMillan - Muirkirk

LesleyB
Posts: 8184
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
Location: Scotland

Post by LesleyB » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:58 am

Hi Karen
This tool is useful as it lets you see which names are included in each group
http://resources.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ ... xconverter

Best wishes
Lesley