Of/In this parish.....

[annpa]

I have downloaded the OPR marriage cert of my gggrandparents, John Farquhar and Mary Lang (entered in the register as Farguhar).
The actuaL text is "John Farguhar and Mary Lang both IN this parish".
They were proclaimed 27 March and married 15 April 1924. The clerk or minister uses this phrase throughout the whole page

What does "IN this parish" mean. does it mean the same as "OF" this parish? I am trying to find where they were born but having a lot of difficulties.

Also, how does one know which church the register belongs to? All I know is that it is in Cambuslang, but how many churches were there in Cambuslang in 1824, and what church would this OPR extract refer to?
The heading of the OPR image is less than helpful.

despondently
Annpa

PS I have just noticed that the previous entry reads " Archibald Dugald in Blantyre Parish and Anne Barr in this parish Married". Would I be right then in understanding that "In" Blantyre parish meant that Archibald Dugald had been baptised in Blantyre, or does it just mean that Archibald Dugald had been living in Blantyre prior to the marriage?

still despondent
Annpa

[AndrewP]

Hi Annpa,

I take the meaning of OF this parish or IN this parish to be the same and meaning that they were resident in that parish at the time of the proclamation of the banns (or the marriage). As you have found if either of the couple were resident of another parish then that parish is usually named there. I don't think it has to do with if they were baptised there or not. Otherwise you would see more where both parties were of some other parish as they had moved over the years.

All the best,

AndrewP

[annpa]

Thanks Andrew

I take it then that the marriage OPRs don't tell where the persons were born or baptised.

Annpa

[AndrewP]

I take it then that the marriage OPRs don't tell where the persons were born or baptised.

Not normally. Only a few OPR marriages give more details such as parents' names. I cannot recall of having ever seen one giving a place of birth or baptism.

All the best,

AndrewP

[Chris Paton]

I had a discussion about this with one of my tutors on the Strathclyde University post grad genealogy cert course last week. My understanding, though it is not a hard and fast rule, is that "of this parish" means "originally from and currently in" the parish, whereas "in this parish" could apply to a more temporary arrangement, such as that of a seasonal ag lab worker who may only be there for a year etc. That's not a definitive answer, it just works for some parishes apparently.

It is something that I too am trying to get to the bottom of as I have a real conundrum in my tree just now. My 5xgreat grandfather John Paton married in Perth in 1772 to Agnes Watson. In 1773 and 1777 he had two children, Agnes and John (and then William my 4xg gramps in 1778), born in the parish of Dunbarney, just south of Perth. The wording for each is as follows:

May 2nd 1773
Agnes daughter to John Patton in Rimbltown (sic)

(1778)
Baptized April 27th, John, son to John Paton in Rimbletown

Although the mother is not listed, the family is confirmed as being correct from subsequent marriage, census and death records.

I have searched high and low for a Rimbletown in Dunbarney and found nothing. I've looked at old maps on the National Library of Scotland site, the Statistical Accounts, gazeteers, and the entire contents of the 1841 and 1851 censuses (fortunately Dunbarney was a small parish!). There is no Rimbletown listed.

However, in neighbouring Fife, there is a Rimbleton in what is now Glenrothes, and previously the parish of Markinch. This is about ten to fifteen miles from Dunbarney. I am beginning to think that this is the Rimbletown in question, as having done some digging into its history, I have learned that Markinch had a thriving weaving trade and a local river salmon fishing trade. John Paton (Patton) was known to have worked both as a handloom weaver and a salmon fisherman in Perth, and the 1770s was a boom period for the handloom industry, especially in Perth which is why I believe John returned there.

Unfortunately, I have a brick wall with John with regard to going back further. My working theory is that John may have come from Dunbarney parish, but in the 1770s worked in Rimbleton. When his kids were born I believe he may have had them christened in his home parish, even though he was away in Markinch. However, I would have expected the record to have said "in the parish of Markinch" as opposed to "in Rimbletown", though if you look at how brief the entries are you could be forgiven for thinking that the minister was scared his hand might fall off if he wrote down too much! The marriage record in Perth in 1772 states John Paton and Agnes Watson were "both in this parish", and not "of this parish", which again leads me to wonder if there time in Perth before the marriage was not a temporary situation prior to going to Dunbarney or Markinch?

Any thoughts welcome!

Chris

[Russell]

Hi Chris

In general terms I would agree with you

"of this parish" means "originally from and currently in" the parish, whereas "in this parish" could apply to a more temporary arrangement

I think there may be another possible factor which would influence interpretation.
Where a minister has been resident in a parish for years and knows his parishioners and their backgrounds he would proclaim them as 'of this parish' but if he was newly called to a parish he would not be aware of how long some had lived there and might use the alternative 'in this parish'
Usually folk find out from other sources which interpretation applies but occasionally it might be required that you have to find out more about the minister's tenure to be sure (that is if you can ever be sure!!)

Russell[/quote]

[DavidWW]

I've always understood the situation as follows .........

"Of" in connection with a placename, i.e. "David Webster of Auchenshuggle" generally means ownership of the place named, i.e. a heritable proprietor, however much such ownership is feudal, - normally for lairds and above, - the traditional form of address being "The Much Honoured Laird of .........)

"In" on a similar basis, i.e. "David Webster in Auchenshuggle", most often means that the person named is a tenant in the place named, but not the laird.

"At" on the other hand means little more then resident there.

(Or have I got "in" and "at" the wrong way round ??............ later, - no, I haven't, just found the reference I needed in D J Steel's "Sources for Scottish Geneaology and Family History" )

The extent to which one or more of these usages has come through to descriptions in the OPRs is not a subject on which I'd feel comfortable to pronounce.

That written, I've always understood the OPR usage to be that both "of this parish" and "in this parish" mean no more that presently resident in said parish........


Summing it up ..........

heritable proprietors - of {placename}

tenants - in {placename}

soujorners - at {placename}

(Except for Orkney where, for odal landowners, "of that ilk" and "in that ilk" were synonymous, due to the usage in Norse of "i" and "à" as synonymous.)

In general there is no birthplace link with the use of the terms except that it is quite possible that a heritable proprietor would have been born in the same place. A tenant might well also have succeeded to his father's tenancy, but far from automatically so.

Further, the OPR use of "in" in the phrase "in this parish" in general has no meaning other than currently resident in this parish, and is not equivalent to the usage for a tenant when he or she is linked with the placename of their tenancy.

Lastly, "of this parish" in the OPR would only make sense if it referred a heritable proprietor, and that status should be clear in the entry, otherwise the meenister and the session clerk would be for the high jump In other words, the use of "of" in that situation is equivalent to that of "in" in "in this parish", and is not the same as the table above, which wouldn't be "of this parish" but "of {placename}" unless, of course, the {placename} was the same as the parish name, which is unlikely.

David

[Chris Paton]

Thanks for that David, Bruce had actually mentioned the ownership point as well, which I should have mentioned. Can you suggest any further sources I can search for a Rimbletown in Dunbarney, and what do you think of the likelihood of what I posited above? It's driving me crazy! lol

[David Lang]

Annpa

Any more details on your Mary Lang , I have a few in my tree unaccounted for !!!

As to "in" "of" "at" I would suggest in means born and resident there , of being residence there for a period , at passing through an iterinant sort of way

David Lang

[joette]

Speaking to my 2nd Cousin on Sunday he has long looked for the farm that our GGGreat-Grandparents were both resident on when they married.
Poured over maps,asked around but nobody had ever heard of Kindylands(?)We were not even sure of the spelling.As he travels around the Borders for his job,he asked an aquaintance if he had ever heard of it.Not only had this bloke heard of it but was able to pinpoint it & this week John is off with camera in hand to have a wee look.
I eagerly await the results.They married in Eddlestone where Helen Veitch was born & near where the farm they both worked.Their marriage is noted as both "of this Parish"